Author Topic: Phils tone (Read 660 times)

jseitang · « **on:** March 20, 2006, 09:51:58 AM »

i know this is redundant, but i wanted quick response to how approx. get the genreal phil tone off the sf2. anybody have some settings they would like to share?
thanks

crgaston · « **Reply #1 on:** March 20, 2006, 05:40:30 PM »

I don't have one yet (it's on the way), but in general, the older tone is lots of highs and lows but light on the mids. His more recent stuff is similar, but has a healthy 800-1000Hz component thrown in. I'll check this post in a few days and let you know what I come up with as far as specific settings, although I imagine those will be directly applicable only to my own basses, rig, and touch.

jseitang · « **Reply #2 on:** March 20, 2006, 09:02:06 PM »

well if youre talking about the stuff he did with the ebo vs. the starfire, there is a lot of variations within that. then of course is his fabled osage orange alembic bass, which in my opinion was the sum of the two previous basses and more.

crgaston · « **Reply #3 on:** March 20, 2006, 09:28:55 PM »

For me, earlier is Alembic (including the Starfire) and later is Modulus (incl. Ken Smith). So I guess I divide it into 4 vs 6.

crgaston · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2006, 09:26:33 PM »

OK, this may not exactly work for you, but should get you in the ballpark. Signal Chain: .8mm Clayton acetal triangular pick .45-.130 DR Sunbeam nickel strings 1999 Alembic Rogue 5 with Signature electronics and bass/treble boost/cut switches. F1-X SF-2 in effects loop QSC PLX 2402, parallel mono mode Bergantino EX 112 from channel 1 2 Eden D112XLT's from channel 2 Settings: Neck and bridge filters rolled off 20-25%, a bit more rolloff on the neck. Bridge Q switch off, neck Q off for normal, on for "angry!". Blend anywhere from even to full neck. The F1-X is in mono mode; ignore the crossover setting. The SF-2 is in mono so it acts as a 3 channel mixer. Basically I am using the bass' onboard filters to shape the high end, (which appears at the output as the direct gain), the left SF-2 channel for the lows, and the right SF-2 channel for the mids. Channel 1 of the SF-2 and F1X gain and eq settings-

This filter is in bandpass mode, so I am boosting the lows more the lower I play on the neck. With the 6dB/octave slope of the bandpass, this effect is more gradual than with the 12dB/octave lowpass setting. In other words, the filter kicks harder on the lower notes, so notes above D on the A string are lean and punchy, and the lower you go below that, the more thunderous it becomes. (Also, the room I was playing in has a huge standing wave at 110 Hz or so. I was able to induce feedback by sweeping the filter on and off 110. It was so huge the AC ducts were vibrating.) Here is Channel 2 of the SF-2-

This midrange setting works for my bass and cabinets; you may want to play with the frequency and damping ratio depending on what you've got. The direct gain knob is full up since that is what's controlling the highs (as well as the full range signal coming off the bass.) I really begin to notice the filters when the gain gets up to about 7. Below that, with the direct gain set at 10, I'm really not hearing a significant effect. Also, the low damping ratios help spread the boost out instead of concentrating it on one frequency, to my ears. I had it boosted pretty high to find the freq I was looking for, but then backed it off to get the sound I wanted. My best suggestion, really is to decide what you want to hear from the lows, mids, and highs, and go about finding them in a methodical manner. I started with the high end (direct gain 10, both filter gains 0),ignoring everything else, just using the pick on the open D string and tweaking the neck filter a bit at a time until I heard the sound I wanted. Then I turned down the direct gain, turned the 1st filter gain and damping ratio to 10, and found the bottom I freq I was looking for. Then I turned the direct gain back up and adjusted the filter gain and dampinf ratio down to where they blended well with the direct. Then I repeated the process with the second filter channel. It takes a while to adjust between different basses and different spaces, but I'm getting faster, and I've only had the SF-2 a little over a week. Trust your ears, and be methodical, and you will find what you're looking for. Good Luck, Charles

bassman10096 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 04, 2006, 09:28:20 PM »

Charles: Your SF Channel 1 settings are similar to mine (when I go for Philtone) except I have it set lowpass and the frequency up just a little bit more. Can you elaborate a bit more about the gradual effect of using the bandpass vs. the lowpass in the low end of neighborhood?

I've been playing an EBO with twin passive Dark Stars through SF and F1-X and a QSC PLX 2402 biamped to a 212 and an ELF 18. The effect is very close to Phil's EBO (not hooty like the Starfire) and a bit more raw than Alembic electronics. With TI JF344s the low end is just massive and enveloping and the D and G strings get very close to Phil's tone (think the bridge in Wharf Rat) - I'd describe it as a combination between a hollow wooden resonance and a rubber band.

Sounds like you've really taken to that SF. I've always found it good with Alembics, but even better with non-Alembics. It changes the capabilities of non-Alembic basses pretty radically.

Bill

crgaston · « **Reply #6 on:** April 04, 2006, 10:38:57 PM »

Bill,

I would normally have that frequency a little higher, too, but the room I was in was super boomy around 110 Hz, so it just got out of control if I went any higher. In my basement, I've gotten great results with the freq around 100 and the switch in lowpass mode, but it's small and rectangular and my partner gets disturbed if it's too loud, (stuff upstairs starts moving around). I love how you can be playing it veery quietly in the upper register, the hit a low note and have it pressurize the room, while still sounding quiet. Not loud, but huge?!

Anyway, to answer your question:

According to the manual, the lowpass setting has a 12 dB/octave slope above the selected frequency, which means that if the boost is centered at 50 Hz, then at 100 Hz it is 12 dB less than it is at 50. With a maximum 10 db boost on the Superfilter, you're not getting any real boost in that area from the filter.

The bandpass setting has a 6dB/octave slope both above and below the selected frequency, so if the boost is centered at 50 Hz, then at 100 Hz, it is only 6 dB less than it is at 50. The downside to this is that it also is 6dB less at 25, which means the low B is losing probably 5 dB at the fundamental. With that band, I'm only playing a low B 2 or 3 times a set, but am using the C, C#, D and Eb pretty frequently, so I can live with it.

I hope that is a better explanation. Let me know if it's still a bit muddy.

This is an amazing little box, and I'm sure I will keep finding new ways to run it. I haven't really delved into running channel 1 into channel 2 yet, so who knows? And oh, yes, it makes the Modulus sound very, very good.

Charles

bob · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2006, 10:43:21 PM »

I wouldn't know Philtone if it slapped me up'side the head (sorry)... But Charles has written a very nice piece here, about how to approach SF-2 settings, so I'll try to help out a little.

I especially like the concept of listening to just one filter, until you find some aspect that you like, and then working on blending it back in with the rest of the sound. This works well for me, and Charles has provided a great example.

As for the gradual effect of using the bandpass vs. the lowpass in the low end of the neighborhood...

On Channel A, Charles has the frequency set all the way down to 45, with Q/Damping at a moderate 3. So there are two things going on here.

First, the Q is giving him modest boost in a range somewhere around the low E or F. I don't know exactly what the range is, but it probably is making a difference down to B or C, certainly D, as well as somewhat higher (probably up to A, maybe B).

Second, the low pass filter uses a 12 dB/octave slope, while the band pass uses a 6 dB slope. So once you get above the boost region, the band pass setting is progressively reducing the level, by half as much per octave compared to using a low pass filter. That's what he means by gradual.

Charles is getting a pretty good boost on the lowest few notes of his 5 string, and gradually ramping down (as he plays higher) from there. Assuming you (Bill) were using the same Damping, but a low pass at a higher frequency, then you would be getting a much sharper peak around whatever frequency you had set.

Even if the Damping (Q) was the same, you would not be boosting the lowest notes as much, and above the frequency setting, you would be cutting them off twice as fast. In other words, Charles is getting a nice gradual increase as he goes down the scale, with some extra boost near the very bottom. In contrast, you are getting a sharper and narrower peak somewhere above the bottom.

It's a little hard to explain, especially without drawing some pictures. I encourage you to try Charles' approach: turn off the direct gain and the other filter gain, and try both settings (better yet, set one filter each way, and alternately use one or the other).

Hope that helps, a little.
-Bob

crgaston · « **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2006, 10:50:23 PM »

Dang, Bob, I'm an English teacher and you 'splain better than I do!

Thanks!
:-)

bob · « **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2006, 11:10:30 PM »

Perhaps, but it took me longer, so we overlapped :-)

bassman10096 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 05, 2006, 04:04:32 AM »

Thanks Bob (and Charles). After I posted the question last night, I tried to visualize the effect of using the bandpass rather than the lowp. Pretty close to what I saw in my mind's eye...

Now - gotta finish my coffee and get my lazy arse downstairs to try this all out.

Thanks

Viva las' filters!

Bill

bassman10096 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2006, 08:25:58 AM »

Changing the low end setting on the SF to bandpass reduced some of the boominess and increased the articulation. Overall a better, more useable sound. Thanks guys.

BTW. This thread should be added to the SF-2 section of Must Reads.

Bill

jseitang · « **Reply #12 on:** April 05, 2006, 10:41:18 AM »

so how do you guys like the dark star pick ups going through a sf2? i think thats the live/dead sound.

bassman10096 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2006, 05:35:03 PM »

Somewhere between that and Skullf**k. Probably closer to the latter with the EBO. Lots of Guild and DeArmand Starfires got 'em too. That probably gets closer to Live Dead and a lot of Casady's Guild sounds.

edwin · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2006, 09:43:09 PM »

I remember reading in an interview that Phil found the bandpass filters most useful in the Godfather and Osage Orange basses. Perhaps this is why.

Edwin