Author Topic: Which Alembic for deep tone?  (Read 429 times)

ghunter

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« on: May 26, 2006, 01:13:39 PM »
Around ten years ago I played someone else's Wal Walnut Mach 1 before a gig and fell in love with both the feel and the tone.  Earlier this year I thought that I might look into buying one but it seems that the prices are skyrocketing (poor timing on my part, to say the least).  An '86 Mach I just sold for North of $4000 on ebay this week!
 
A friend here in Seattle suggested that instead of waiting a year or more to find the right Wal I look at Alembic.  I like this idea a lot, also because support for Alembic seems very solid whereas it's tough to get a hold of Pete (Wal's a one man shop) even if you're a dealer who wants to give him tens of thousands of pounds for new instruments, let alone an owner who needs a spare part!
 
I've been reading a lot of posts on these forums and am still trying to digest the MASSIVE amount of information here.  Hence, I'm hoping that I can get some quick guidance to point me in the right direction.
 
A bit of background on me...
I've always been a StingRay guy and am happy with the multiple Music Man basses I own, including the very versatile 5-string HH I bought a few weeks ago.  I'm currently using a Super Redhead, but this is getting swapped out for an Eden WT-400 + cab TBD (prob Bergantino HT112).  I also have some Trace Elliot pieces in the garage that I may re-assemble into a working SMX rig.  My style is 50% finger/dub and 50% pick/aggressive, either of which mixes in well with a very busy drummer depending on his mood (hehehe).
 
I've seen some gorgeously sleek Europas and Elans that have made my jaw drop, and that's the modern style I'd like to stick with even though the classic Alembic is beautiful in its own way.  However, do these models have the deep tones and flexibility that will make me forget about the Wal?  What other options in the Alembic line should I consider?  Series I/II are more than I want to spend, as $2000-$3000 is my rough budget for a 5 or 6 string model.
 
Thanks!
 
Graham

keavin

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 01:46:00 PM »
Europa & Rogue basses or the Excel Models are the Deep Tone monsters aside from the series basses!............also too keep your eyes on ebay for a Series Model they pop up often!
 
(Message edited by keavin on May 26, 2006)
 
(Message edited by keavin on May 26, 2006)

lowlife

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 01:58:22 PM »
I own 2 different 5-string Excels and I play them through David Eden amps & cabs.  I am completly satisfied with the deep end.  IMHO, if you are able to try a few out, your ears will be the best judge of all.  Good luck on your tone quest.
 
Ellery (Lowlife)
 
(Message edited by lowlife on May 26, 2006)

ghunter

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 02:11:19 PM »
Europa, Rogue, and Excel are what I'm on the lookout for now, then.  You didn't mention the Elan - how do they sound?
 
I'm going to continue to try and play as many Alembics as I can from here on.  There was a just-arrived Series I fretless at Bass Northwest last time I was there and played beautifully but the $5000 price tag would be enough to incite a divorce when I returned home!  I've never played an instrument that felt so effortless, so I knew that I shouldn't even plug it in or else I really would want to take it home.

bsee

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 02:25:58 PM »
I would focus on the woods more than the model.  To me, deep tone means purpleheart or heavier stringers in the neck, or at least a bunch of non-maple.  It also means mahogany or vermillion body cores.  The Elan has a maple body, so it will have a brighter tone than most other Alembics.  
 
Of course, all of this averages out somewhat from instrument to instrument.  Not all pieces of maple sound exactly the same.

jseitang

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 02:49:51 PM »
hey also consider the difference between solid body and semi hollow. that will, along with the electronics you decide, will give you that deep tone you're looking for.

ghunter

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 02:56:43 PM »
Semi-hollow was never a consideration, to be honest with you.  I have a semi-hollow body Guild Starfire IV guitar and I wouldn't call that a deep tone (crisp and sharp, maybe).
 
along with the electronics you decide
 
If I had the budget, I would order a brand new custom model in a heartbeat.  I don't think I'll have the luxury of choosing electronics so much as them choosing me  
 
Any dos/don'ts to suggest for Alembic electronics with great low end?

jazzyvee

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 03:06:45 PM »
I have both a SC  DLX 4 and an Europa5. Both have incredible low end power and clarity. I would say the SC has a more mellow rounder deep tone than the Europa and I've done some reggae with the SC and the bottom end is so solid.  
 
I use a Mesa boogie valve head with 2x10 and 1x15 power house cabs which give me a great sound.
 
If the bass isn't deep enough for you, then maybe you could look at getting an SF-2 as well when you get  your alembic. Then you will have no Deep End problems.
 
Jazzyvee.
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

jseitang

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 03:54:54 PM »
semi hollow with an sf2 can make your bass sound pretty deep.

s_wood

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2006, 07:33:55 PM »
Graham:
 
I own a few Alembics, and I've played lots of them over the years.  I also own a Wal Mach III, and I can tell you that the low end of most Alembics is at least equal to the low end of my Wal, and is probably better, to my subjective ears.
 
A couple of observations: generally speaking, all things being equal a neck through bass will produce noticably more sustain than a bass with a bolt-on neck. The increase in sustain will often manifest itself as an increase in the first fundamental of each note, or what we call low end. All Alembics except Orions and Excels are neck-throughs.  Wals are bolt-ons, like your beloved Stingrays.  Don't get me wrong: bolt-ons  produce a very pleasing tone that lots of musicians really love, but I don't think that you can say that those basses are stronger in their low frequency response when compared to neck through instruments.
 
I think that when people say that Alembics are lacking low end response what they are really mean is that Alembic electronics are capable of producing more high end than they are used to hearing.  Alembic electronics produce a very flat frequency response way up to about 6khz, and there are very few basses that can do that.  So, when people say that a XXX bass has a strong low end what they really mean is that the highs are missing, which accentuates what is left.  It you want to produce that tone with an Alembic, all you need to do is roll off some of the high end with the filters.  But, as Greg Allman once said, you can't lose what you never had, and if the high end isn't there in the first place you can't roll it off.  Alembic's whole design philosophy is to let the player make tonal decisions as opposed to forcing them upon him or her.
 
As others have said, if you are really into a sound with less high end you would probably prefer an Alembic with a mahagony, walnut or cherry core. Steer clear of maple.  If you can afford it, adding ebony neck laminates to a maple neck will give you more low end than is legal in some states. The top wood makes some difference as well, but as long as you stay away from flame maple you will be fine.      
 
Last point: I really hate to say bad things about people as life is far too short for that, but the truth is the truth:  Wal's customer service is horrible. I mean the WORST. Basically, there is no customer service.  The neck on my Mark III bowed terribly after about 6 months, probably because the wood wasn't properly dried.  Hey, it happens.  However, this should never happen: it took me 18 months to get a new neck for the bass.  It took me  6 months to contact Pete.  I must have left him 20 phone messages (and I live in the US!) without a return call. Finally, and in desperation, I complained about the whole sad story on a Wal forum, and some kind soul in England actually went to the Wal shop and told Pete to call me back.  At his direction I sent him the neck from my bass, and he didn't send me a new one for a year. Caveat emptor.
 
(Message edited by s_wood on May 27, 2006)

David Houck

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2006, 08:44:42 AM »
I agree with Steve and Bob; if you're going for deep tones I believe it is the case that, when looking at Alembics, it's not so much the models or even the electronics as it is the woods and the neck.
 
And if you want flexibility then you're looking at electronics packages.
 
Given what you said in your post about liking the modern body styles, I would suggest watching for a Europa or Rogue.  You'll want one with a Mahogany body, as most do.  You'll also want one with Purplehart neck laminates which many have, and probably something like a Walnut top.  Ebony neck laminates would be even better, but you're probably not going to run across one with Ebony neck lams in the used market.  But the Mahogany body, Purpleheart neck lams and Walnut top would probably give you the deep lows you're looking for in a used bass; and the Europa electronics will give you the flexibility.
 
But I'm just speculating about the relative aspects of Alembics, and it's hard to really know from a few typed words what kind of tone someone else is actually looking for.  Given your background in MusicMan basses, for all I know an Excel might be right up your alley; and it would be much less expensive than a Europa or Rogue.
 
Depending on your rig and how you set it up, you can get a good low end out of an all Maple Alembic.  So if you run across a Maple Elan in a music store, plug it in and play it.
 
(Technical correction to Steve's post.  What Steve probably meant to type was that all Alembics except Orions, Excels and Epics are neck-throughs.)

ghunter

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2006, 10:59:23 AM »
Thanks to all for this great information.  I'm starting to see multiple Alembics in my future  
 
I've found two basses so far:  
- A 4 with mahogany body, cocobolo top, purpleheart in neck
- A 5 with mahogany body, koa top, ebony board
 
Would anyone care to comment on the suitability of an Essence for my purposes, or perhaps even estimate how much one is worth?  I'm starting an Excel workbook to track prices, too.

pmoran

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2006, 02:26:59 PM »
hi, graham. i am far from an expert on alembics, but i know basses and i know low end. i'm not the technical genius many of the guys on this site are, but i'm into metal and hard rock, which many here are not into. i'm always looking for that judas priest live/move your innards around/make the sleeves of your tshirt blow back kind of low end. i've been able to accomplish that w/my 5100 watts of trace elliot heads and my bag end 18 infra cabs coupled w/my bag end ELF M2 integrator. i like low end. IMHO, you are not going to accomplish that low end goal w/a non-neckthru alembic. not even w/a non-neck thru 5 string alembic. as others here have suggested, you should seek out a used europa, rogue, signature or series. you can find a used europa for a little below or above $2500 and i believe that would do the job. there are some series available for a little more but they usually need some upgrades to the electronics. keep looking and don't jump at the first alembic you find, especially if it's not a neckthru. if you're looking for something more in the $1000-$1800 range, i believe a used persuader could do you fine. i've owned several and w/the right rig, you can create thunder.

pmoran

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 02:30:04 PM »
hi, graham. i am far from an expert on alembics, but i know basses and i know low end. i'm not the technical genius many of the guys on this site are, but i'm into metal and hard rock, which many here are not into. i'm always looking for that judas priest live/move your innards around/make the sleeves of your tshirt blow back kind of low end. i've been able to accomplish that w/my 5100 watts of trace elliot heads and my bag end 18 infra cabs coupled w/my bag end ELF M2 integrator. i like low end. IMHO, you are not going to accomplish that low end goal w/a non-neckthru alembic. not even w/a non-neckthru 5 string alembic. as others here have suggested, you should seek out a used europa, rogue, signature or series. you can find a used europa for a little below or above $2500 and i believe that would do the job. there are some series available for a little more but they usually need some upgrades to the electronics. keep looking and don't jump at the first alembic you find, especially if it's not a neckthru. if you're looking for something more in the $1000-$1800 range, i believe a used persuader could do you fine. i've owned several and w/the right rig, you can create thunder.

David Houck

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Which Alembic for deep tone?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 07:12:43 PM »
Pat; I'm curious.  How much power are you actually pushing through each of your infra cabs?  They're rated at 400 watts.