Author Topic: Alembic Instruments cables?  (Read 245 times)

lbpesq

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Alembic Instruments cables?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2006, 10:03:52 AM »
Bob:
 
Can you suggest a more scientific refutation of Mr. Winer's article?  My experience is almost exclusively in live, full band situations where subtle differences are more likely to be lost in the mix than in a studio recording environment.  It always seemed to me, based on my admittedly limited understanding of electrical engineering, that gauge, and it's effect on resistance, was the only really critical component of guitar cable effectiveness.  Other concerns were more of a personal choice, like color and flexibility.  Do different frequencies of my guitar's signal bounce around inside the cord like soundwaves bouncing around the interior of a club? Or is it merely a matter of the electical signal either passes through or doesn't?  At least Mr. Winer's article attempts to explain what is physically happening.  Can you point me in the direction of a contrary scientific explanation?
 
Bill, tgo

keith_h

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Alembic Instruments cables?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2006, 02:18:00 PM »
Here's another site I have run across relatingto speaker cables. In a nutshell it all gets down to resistance which is directly related to the length, guage and purity of the conductor.  
 
Keith

bob

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Alembic Instruments cables?
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2006, 01:41:55 AM »
Bill,
 
I don't really have the time or inclination to try to scientifically refute the Winer article, nor the second article posted by Keith.
 
In fact, they both say a number of things that are perfectly clear and indisputable. Certainly, several basic factors such as effective wire gauge, cable length, signal level, and so forth, are well-understood, and you should look to fall within reasonable guidelines. For instance, it can be downright dangerous to use an instrument cord as a speaker cable, and even if it doesn't fry, it probably won't sound as good as something heavier - we know this, no one is arguing the point.
 
As I said earlier, more or less, don't waste your money on something you can't hear. If you have never heard a significant difference between basic cables and more expensive, non-boutique, ones, like Monster, then other factors like flexibility, color, and ease of replacement would be appropriate things to guide your choice.
 
At the same time, there do seem to be some people who believe - without necessarily being able to prove - that they can hear differences. I count myself in this camp, and at least a couple others said as much in the recent lava cable thread, and perhaps in some earlier threads.
 
Even though (I believe) I can hear differences, that doesn't mean I'll necessarily spend the money. In my bass rig, I would choose to spend an extra grand for a better amp or something, rather than upgrading my cables - whereas in my stereo system, I really wish I'd had the budget to spend more than the $1800 I did on a pair of six foot speaker cables (they are pretty nice, I'm not complaining - but I know there are better).
 
The reason I spoke up here at all is that both of these articles are trying to argue that the entire high end audio industry is a rip off. They both start by reviewing a few simple, well-known principles, but (having established their sound scientific approach), go on to make a number of outlandish and unsubstantiated claims. While I don't personally feel the need to defend the high end audio industry, reading stuff written in this fashion (regardless of subject) just happens to offend me.
 
For example, Winer says The key to identifying most audio scams is the very high prices charged. As an audio pro, I know that $1,000 can buy a state of the art power amplifier. So it makes no sense to pay, say, $17,000 for an amplifier that is no better and may well be worse.
 
Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I would argue that he has made at least two or three unsubstantiated claims in that paragraph, and there is absolutely nothing here that I would consider scientific. While I would certainly agree, in the most literal interpretation, that it would not make sense to pay more for an amplifier that is no better, he has done nothing to establish that such an amplifier does not, or could not, exist.
 
I could go on for hours dissecting both of these articles (which, despite a decent number of valid points, both end up turning into rants), but this is not the appropriate forum.
 
I think the bottom line is this: if you don't hear a difference, then don't waste your money. If you do hear a difference (and have taken the time to develop critical listening skills, tried to ensure a reasonably controlled environment, rely on your own judgement rather than advertising claims, and so forth), then pay what it is worth to you, regardless of whether you can find someone, today, who can explain exactly why in scientific terms.
 
Yes, those little electrons do bounce around inside the cable, in odd ways that actually are frequency dependent, sensitive to skin effects, influenced by the composition and construction of the dieletric (insulator), and some other stuff, most of which is over my head. The simplest measurements (resistance, capacitance, or even length, diameter, and gauge) are summary or overall values that cannot fully characterize such behavior.
 
This is most certainly not magic or hocus-pocus, but as best I can tell, it is also not fully understood by anyone on this planet at this point in time - not in strictly electrical terms, and most certainly not in terms of human audio perception. There is ongoing debate about the extent to which this kind of stuff matters at audible frequencies, if at all - but there is debate, and some people continue to spend significant time and money trying to understand it better.
 
Look, to this day no one can explain why Stradivarius violins are so unique, yet it is generally accepted that they are (the varnish theory now appears to be pretty well discredited, and it seems we may be back to the wood...) If we haven't yet been able to figure that out, how can anyone believe that we have achieved an exhaustive understanding of electrical behavior, and can reduce it to some small set of simple measurements?
 
Sorry for going on so long. Just so the point doesn't get lost, I still think Monster or something in that range is a quite reasonable choice for instrument cables, but I am also convinced that it is possible to do better, or worse, strictly in terms of sound.
-Bob

bigredbass

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Alembic Instruments cables?
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2006, 08:09:59 AM »
So you spend real money on first rate cables from whomever . . . and you open up your expensive speaker cabs and they're wired from the jack/crossover to the speakers with this little 20-guage stuff that looks just like the wire that comes with those $20 car speakers at the flea market!
 
J o e y

gare

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Alembic Instruments cables?
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2006, 03:29:27 PM »
Were those the triaxial speakers ?
 
Lots of interesting points here. I've always thought, heck if I'm playing in a bar, who's paying attention or listening that closely that they could tell the difference. How do you justify the extra cost ? (for the boutique stuff)
Although there is a marked difference between the 3 pack of 20 footers from Sam Ash for $10 and Monster cables.
I'll spring for the $40 cable, a little more durable and they have those pretty gold connectors.  
Bob hit it on the head..trust your ears.
 
G