Author Topic: PU selector switch wiring shield (important)  (Read 592 times)

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 07:57:19 PM »
I have recorded the pops/clicks and reduced the volume to avoid damage to the speakers, in case it comes loud in your system.
 
I'll describe the symptoms as good as I can:
1) It's the same noise in any positions, 1, 2, 3 or 4
2) If I toggle very slowly, I can virtually stop the noise! That should give some clues (at least there is this option for now).
 
Chris suggested that maybe using a better switch, with silver/gold plated contacts my help, but it's not sure, he said 50% chances?
 
I suggested a non shorting type switch (break before make), Chris said he didn't know if that would help, again 50%?    
 
Now that I realize that if toggle very slowly I can avoid the pop, it makes me wonder, why would a better switch (silver/gold) take care of it?  
It might last longer, yes, but would it fix this? I am not sure...
 
http://www.topfloormix.com/bits/pops_clicks.mp3
 
Well, at the moment, I have to be extremely careful when I toggle the switch, because it could damage something (headphones, speakers...)

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006, 05:14:22 PM »
Hello Mica,
 
Thanks for being interested in the clicking/poping issue.
 
Could you please advise or help me?
 
Thanks,
LG

mica

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2006, 06:05:23 PM »
Hi Louis-Gino,
 
I'm waiting to find out if the switch is wired as shown in the diagram I posted on October 31 before I can offer any meaningful advice. Let me know when Chris gets a chance to look at the diagram, thanks.

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2006, 06:47:42 PM »
Hello Mica,
 
I am going to call him again tomorrow, I hope that he will be able to check the picture, I did send it to him last week though.  
Many thanks.

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2006, 05:48:10 AM »
Hello Mica,  
 
I just spoke to Chris, he confirmed that it is wired like on the diagram.
 
As I explained, the click/pops are quite loud (unsafe for speakers/headphones...) and it is equal in each positions.
 
Thanks for your help,
LG

inthelows

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2006, 11:49:56 AM »
Sounds like the contacts are loose or the contact point is off. Moving from point to point fast or slowly shouldn't matter. If the sound is similar to when you pull out the guitar cable, (contact for the battery), it sounds like the circuit isn't isolated. I've had switches that worked fine out of chassis only to ground out when assembled. Something with the wiper arm and collar. Is it possible to try another switch?..NLP

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2006, 01:38:18 PM »
Well, first, thanks for your input. But, second, unfortunately I have been having an extremely hard time getting a 3 poles 4 ways (shorting/make before break) rotary switch. I had to get the first and only one available in London/Maplin, the only other type they have is non shorting/break before make.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=2417&criteria=rotary%20switch&doy=7m11

inthelows

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2006, 02:10:20 PM »
I googled 3 pole 4 way rotary switch and got a tons of hits including doctronics.co.uk and rs-components.co.nz. On some of the sites they post wiring FAQs. Perhaps its worth a look. I'm sure the Alembic staff will have a handle on this soon enough!
NLP

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2006, 02:25:43 PM »
We checked RS UK (not NZ) they didn't have anything suitable.
The thing is, I had to get it quick, otherwise it could have taken ages to get one from abroad, and both Chris and I, wanted to get this project out the way. I'll check doctronics as well, thanks.

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2006, 07:22:34 PM »
Hello Mica,  
 
Do you have any suggestion/ideas please?  
Would bigger resistors on the output help, maybe...?

dfung60

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2006, 10:19:54 AM »
Here's a couple of things you should check - first, confirm the exact part number on the switch.  You'll momentarily lose all output when you have the break-before-make switch instead of the make-before-break switch that you want which you may perceive as a pop.  If you turn a switch like this very slowly, you may be manually forcing both the before and after positions into contact at the same time, which makes it into the right kind of switch.
 
Second, when you get a loud popping noise in a system with active EQ, it's because you interrupted power to the preamp circuit while switching.  It sounds like your plan had a pair of filter circuits, which are active preamps powered from the batteries.  They have a DC power supply wire that's coming from the batteries (however many there are).  The +V power must not be interrupted at any time and shouldn't be routed through the switch.  
 
The trickier part is that the -V or power ground from the batteries can't be routed through the switch either.  Interrupt either line and you'll get an enormous thump at the signal output.  
 
In one of her early responses, Mica noted that only the hot leads (center of the coax) from the pickups go through the switch.  Also, all the pickup grounds (the mesh shield from each pickup) join at a common point which is separate from the battery -V or battery ground.  The output pole of the big switch is the +signal input to the filter board.  The pickup common ground is the -signal input to the filter board (and doesn't pass through the switch).  
 
In your design pictorial, you're doing something a little bit unusual which may also be part of the problem.  In most instruments, the volume controls are wired immediately after the pickups and before any EQ or filter boards.  In your case (because of the pan pot, I guess) the volume controls are wired after the EQ board.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it does make things a little trickier.  
 
The same rule about what gets switched and what gets grounded together applies here, but you have to remember that the post-filter volume pots need to be grounded together, but not together with the pre-filter pickup grounds!  The pan pot is pre-filter, so it needs to be grounded in the same common group as the pickups and switch, but not with the other volumes.  As an adjunct to this, on most instruments this means the resistance value of the pan pot and volume pots will be different.  Because the panpot is living on the passive side of the circuit, there may be some interaction effects (like treble loss) when you treat it like a blend.  Fixing this would require a change in the circuit design (you need to have linear preamps immediately after the pickups and before the switching matrix to eliminate the passive interactions).
 
Although you may not enjoy the tech bill, you might consider working through the wiring incrementally to assure that everything really is working OK.  For instance, you can wire up the pickups and panpot, then take that output directly to the output jack.  This is a totally passive setup, so there's no battery, power switching, or grounding weirdness (of course, no filters or volume knobs either).  Next, add in the filter boards with the power wired directly to the boards (no switching in the jack).  After that, add the post-filter volumes.  Finally, add the power switching.  You'll at least be able to get a sense of how it will sound at each step along the way.
 
To properly maintain power separate, you really want to create a pre-filter common ground for the pickups, switch, panpot, and instrument shielding.  For the power side, you want to wire the filter power supply boards point-to-point from the V+ and V- lines to the batteries, and use a special output jack (like a Series jack) which has dedicated independent power switching.  This will keep power separate from signal and also keep you from interrupting the active EQ power.
 
The reason that you get a big thump if you interrupt power is that the active preamps offset the signal zero point to half the supply voltage.  For instance, if you have a 9VDC power supply, the preamp will amplify it's input signal over a range of +4.5V to -4.5V.  When you aren't playing (no output signal) the zero point is +4.5V relative to the input signal.  If you interrupt the power supply, the output drops from zero being at +4.5V to zero really being at zero.  That is an enormous thump, basically as loud as your amplifier can produce.
 
You want to solve the thump problem by making sure the power is not interrupted.  You can reduce the problem with a big capacitor between filter output and ground which filters out the big thump, but this is a low-pass filter which will affect your tone as well.
 
The more I think about this, the more I think you probably will need to re-examine the circuit to get what you want out of it.  In particular, I think it's unlikely that the pan pot will do what you want it to do without buffering the signal from all three pickups before the switch with a set of linear preamps.  Doing this will mean that all the wiring in the control cavity will be back to common ground and simpler to understand and debug.
 
Good luck,
 
David Fung

lg71

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2006, 10:50:25 PM »
Hi David,
 
While I am still waiting for Mica's advice... I thank you for you input, and it is a valuable post, it will be saved with my other valuable archived emails, BUT:
 
I want to stress a few points here; by reading you post, it seems that you don't realize that the order of the circuit(s) is the original Alembic path, The PU goes to the Filter, then to the Volume, on dual PUs, the PUs go the the Pan, then to the Filter, then to the Volume... I haven't change anything here.
 
Then, a PU selector would be exactly were it situated now in the chain, in place of my switch.  
 
Further, reading you post and your theory, the original Anniversary circuit with the PU selector should pop/click as well, but I don't think it does, no?  
 
To sum it again, it's simply two complete Alembic harness, one of them has a Pan/dual PUs and the other one doesn't, nothing as been altered or changed, apart for adding the Matrix switch (thanks for mentioning the word matrix, it seems to be the appropriate one).
 
A last word, I haven't studied electronics, and I am very far from your knowledge, although I can solder. ;)  
 
Thanks,
LG

dfung60

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PU selector switch wiring shield (important)
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2006, 10:15:26 PM »
LG -  
 
Thanks for the clarification in your last post.  I only have Series basses, which have dedicated preamps on each pickup (as well as the dummy coil), so the topology of the circuit is pretty different.  This did come up in an earlier thread regarding the difference between individual volumes and a pan pot, so I should have known this!
 
The effect of having the pan pot (or individual volume pots for that matter) before the preamp is that turning the pot down to decrease the output level will have an effect on the tone as well, usually a loss of treble.  You probably don't notice this on panpot Alembics because the other pickup is full volume and full tone as well, but you might notice this on an instrument with individual volumes if you turned off one pickup and reduced the volume on the other.  If the volume pot is located after the preamp, then there's no tonal effect from turning the volume down.  This is what I meant when I mentioned that that the panpot might not work the way that you expected, but you are correct in that it should be no different than a panpot Alembic.
 
I think the other observations in my post are correct though.  You need to be careful to make sure that signal and power grounds are kept separate, but this should be straightforward if you follow the normal wiring of the filter boards.  
 
You also need to be careful that the switching system doesn't interrupt the power to the filter boards.  You mentioned that the pops are equal in all positions and very high in level, which still leads me to believe that there's an interruption of sorts as you switch.  Improper combining of grounds might possibly be involved although it seems somewhat unlikely (I guess you might suspect that a short between the two grounds might be part of the problem).  
 
And I do continue to think that the best way to start debugging this is wire things up without the filter boards first.  You would route the outputs that would normally connect to the filter board inputs directly to the output jack (I guess all summed together) and see whether you can switch without noise, then add the active circuits afterwards.
 
Good luck,
 
David Fung