Making a set neck VS a neck through

[88persuader]

I guess this question should go to the actual Alembic builders but here it is anyway. Is it really much harder to build a neck through guitar/bass then a set neck? Seems to me building a set neck bass like Alembic's entry level basses (As if any Alembic is entry level) is just as much work as a neck through. It has to be straight, set up perfectly, notched, set into a body perfectly, made solid as a rock, etc, etc. A neck through starts with a longer set of wood but then is machined from top to bottom and the body is attached or built around it in a different fashion. I don't KNOW but it seems to me thinking about it that creating a beautiful set neck would be just as much work. I have to assume set necks are easier to make to keep the cost of the entry level line down. Any thoughts? Can anyone explain this to me?

[haddimudd]

I am by no means a knowledgeable person in this matter. I can only assume that the cost saving aspect in this matter lies less in the construction of the neck but rather the body which needs to be built up from more pieces when you consider neck-through. I am not sure if this is really the case. Just throwing my guess...
 
Hartmut

[David Houck]

Raymond; you may recall this previous thread, but in case you don't, it may help answer your question.  Go here and then follow the link there to a previous thread that talks about neck and headstock construction.

[the_8_string_king]

Huh?  Neck and headstock construction?
 
I'm confused... that doesn't seem to address the question raised by 88persuader -although I read through the thread, and it was interesting... at least the parts I understood.
 
That said, I'm actually a little curious about the answer to the question 88persuader posed.
 
But... in addition, to that... I must ask, at this point,  for someone (or someones) to educate me... what precisely, is a volute, and what precisely is a scarf joint?  I've seen these terms used, but it would be easier for me to grasp if there were an example, preferably a picture.
 
Thanks, and I look forward to getting educated and seeing the answers to these questions!

[bob]

The point is that while it may seem not so difficult to glue the wings on a through neck, it is actually much more labor intensive to construct the headstock for these.
 
The end of the neck is cut off at an angle, starting right around where the nut will be, and then another piece is glued on to become the peghead. After that come several layers of laminates to increase the strength.
 
Scarf joint generally refers to a technique in which two pieces of stuff are glued together at a shallow angle (rather than just butted end to end), allowing for a larger gluing surface, and extra strength due to the overlapping of the two pieces.
 
Here's a picture of the volute on a recent COTM. The volute is that bump on the back of the neck, roughly under the nut. This is just extra wood left in place to increase the strength.

[lbpesq]

Volute  -  New Jerseyeese meaning a lovable wise guy, as in You big Volute, you
 
 
Scarf Joint:  What Isadora Duncan was smoking just before her death.
 
Bill, tgo

[the_8_string_king]

Waitasecond... you're saying... the peghead... the neck laminates in the peghead... are actually physically separate from those in the neck, and glued on to the neck?
 
Like, if I had a glue-undo ray, and aimed it at an Alembic peghead, it would just completely melt off the neck?
 
I'm assuming I'm misunderstanding what you've said, bob.
 
So let me ask again.  Consider my custom neck-thru in progress.  There is one ebony laminate in the center.  I THOUGHT it ran all the way up into the tip/end of the headstock/peghead.  Are you saying that's not so, and it only runs up to the nut or so, and then another piece of ebony is glued to that neck piece of ebony?
 
Thanks, Mark

[88persuader]

I don't know The 8 string king ... that's what it sounds like to me. The the peg head isn't physically a single piece with the neck, it's attached. Perhaps this can be seen looking at photos in the factory to customer section of the forum?

[tbrannon]

EDIT- post deleted because I was wrong =)
 
See posts below for the correct information.  
 
(Message edited by tbrannon on January 17, 2007)

[adriaan]

It had me wondering too - remember Steve's  beheaded Europe/Series bass? It has ebony laminates and still the peghead broke off pretty cleanly at the scarf joint. So the peghead is a separate piece - probably sawn off the main neck, and then glued on again, at an angle, with the scarf joint.
 
On my set-neck Epic, I can't tell if there's a joint, because the wings would cover up a joint between the central laminates and the peghead if there is one.
 
Couple of reasons I could imagine:
 
-1- You need a bigger chunk of wood if you want to have an integral peghead.
 
-2- If there's a mishap when shaping the peghead, you would have to chuck the entire neck.
 
-3- If you drop the bass on an integral peghead, it impacts the whole bass, and the damage could more easily be beyond repair.
 
(Message edited by adriaan on January 17, 2007)

[jacko]

Sorry toby but bob is absolutely right. the headstock is glued to the neck using a scarf joint. the reason you can't see the joint is because the outer wings of the headstock are glued on afterwards. if you take a look at my FTC thread you'll see it happening. I believe this is done to give an easily repairable joint should the instrument be dropped.(wouldn't like to ever find out though).
 
Graeme

[keith_h]

The scarf also reduces the amount of wood that would be required to carve the angled headstock from one piece of wood.  
 
Keith

[pace]

On my neck through you can actually see the scarf joint. I ordered my Essence SC 6 with a guitar-sized Crown headstock. At it's most narrow spot (strings 2 & 5) the headstock is about the same width as the nut; so the outer wings, while present in the wider sections of the headstock, do not mask the scarf joint.
 
Having 10 headstock veneers is not only pretty, but also nessacary

[cozmik_cowboy]

Yes, Mark, a scarf joint means that the headstock is glued on - you cut the neck blank at an angle, then reverse the HS piece & glue it back on.  Thus, the HS would angle back, and the surface that was the cut now would extend the neck surface. So, the ebony on your headstock will be from the same piece as on your neck, but it will be cut & glued back to itself.  The link in Dave's post has a picture of a classical under construction that shows this process clearly. They then add the wings for HS width, and multiple laminates for strength.  
A volute is a thickening of the neck at the HS, like the dart on old Martins or the second picture down in this thread.  It is needed because carving from a single piece is actually weaker than the scarf joint.
 
Peter
 
(Message edited by Cozmik_Cowboy on January 17, 2007)
 
(Message edited by Cozmik_Cowboy on January 17, 2007)

[tbrannon]

Well there you go~ I learned something today- Now that I see it, it makes perfect sense and I actually remember seeing it before and reading about it.  Total brain fart on my behalf.  
 
Mark- sorry for misleading you- I really thought I knew what I was talking about- It's certainly not the first time I've been wrong. =)
 
EDIT- It also would have been helpful if I had correctly read Bob's post.  I sort of scanned it and then saw Mark's question.  Bob hit the nail on the head, but I failed to grasp what he was saying when I replied.  
(Message edited by tbrannon on January 17, 2007)
 
(Message edited by tbrannon on January 17, 2007)