Growl From set necks?

[mica]

This thread has taken a couple of twists, hasn't it?
 
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Paul,
 
Your Series II and Excel are going to sound so different from eachother. There will be similarities too, but since the construction, woods and electronics are all different, so will the sounds.  
 
As for growl, this is something that I hear most closely associated with controlled mechanical contact between the strings and the frets (or fingerboard on a fretless). This is a matter of setup and playing technique. Try this: does the bass have the growl unamplified? If so, then it's mechanical, and should be able to reproduced on another bass' setup.  
 
There will be instances where the motion of the string is influenced more by the construction and the actual materials used, but the largest component is the player and their technique. I suspect you will play these two basses with at least slightly different techniques, to get the most of out each.  
 
 
About Coco Bolo in the neck, I'm not too excited to try it. It is quite oily, and I don't like giving that structural joint an extra hard time of working well. Maybe I'll test it someday if there's some Coco Bolo around that's about the right size for neck lams and nothing else as an experiment. If we ever do, I'll let you know!
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Joe,  
 
I will say I was confused, because what you initially told me was that you had already found the perfect sound from your bass. I listened to what you were seeking, and suggested Alembic basses might not be right for you, that you would be fighting the nature of the instrument. Since the sound you prefer isn't something that I think can come easily from an Alembic, I agree with your wife (she sounds practical!).  
 
Sorry I gave you some impression of annoyance. I talk to people on the phone, in person and through email every day that will probably never be Alembic customers, and it's not something I even  consider when conversing. I give out the information that is requested of me. I was surprised you only tried out two basses.
 
It sounds like you'll be taking my other advice to bring the rest of your equipment when you are testing a new component. I don't think it's really possible to make a good decision about adding to your sound without the rest of your components. You might get lucky, but it's so much better to be certain.  
 
And of course, if you come the 25 minutes north again, you're welcome to bring your Ampeg (or whatever you wind up getting new) with you, so you can test out instruments with amplification you are familiar with.  
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Barry,  
 
I agree with Rami on the sound from his basses. The wood combinations are getting the strings to behave differently. What's great is Rami can confirm this because it's behaving the same with two different sets of electronics, but identical woods.  
 
I'll expand and say I think the sound is one of the effects of so much Ebony in the necks. Rami's 6-strings have a lot of Ebony in them.  
 
The Series I is a subset of Series II, so the sounds are very similar. The only sonic difference is the way you interact with the Q controls, and that the Series II has a higher available Q setting. The only extra space needed is for the master volume (which you can delete if you need the room).
 
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Aadrian and others,  
 
Regarding talking about music, about a month ago, I had a customer that wanted a punchier sound than the Elan bass he used to own, so I suggested an Orion. He tried it, and said it had too much midrange. He meant more bass response when he said punchier, where I've had many other people describe punchy as more mid range (another loose term!).  
 
So my dad and I were discussing the frustration of using terms like bass, midrange, treble, growl, etc. since these are subjective and based on the listener's experiences. We decided we should do some recordings, and take a poll to see what the perceptions of these recording were. You listen, then you answer if you think it's bassy, punchy, or a new word to describe the sound.  
 
It's not like it would be scientfic, but it might be interesting, and at least get some sonic reference to these indistinct decriptions.  
 
Of course, you can always communicate in frequencies to eliminate confusion.

[olieoliver]

I think that?s an excellent idea Mica.  
 
I agree that what one person might describe as ?punchy? another might hear as ?mid-heavy and unclear?.  
 
It?s like when my wife said she wanted to paint our living room ?mauve?. I lived with a PINK living room for 4 years.
 
Beauty is in the eye (or ear) of the beholder I suppose.

[dadabass2001]

I would love to speak in terms of frequencies, but I have no access to a scope or frequency counter to even know what I'm getting now. Another gray area term I've used (and been called on) is woody. I would love to participate in some subjective tests or see results of same.
Mike

[kmh364]

Mica:
 
Always the voice of reason. Great idea RE: the soundbytes. Please do so post-haste!
 
Barry:
 
You can have the Series I to try any time you like. Lemme know and I'll bring it to work and we can meet for lunch to do the exchange. Just bear in mind that the wood cocktail is probably not something you'd dig (quilt maple/PH/mahogany/PH/quilt maple body sandwich and two PH lam maple neck). She's mint so as long as she comes back with no dings, scratches, buckle rash or PB&J on the strings: you want it, you got it.  
 
FWIW, considering I have three nearly identical Alembics (the two EMW Orion set-necks are clones and the Series is the same wood cocktail excepting the mahogany core varies from the swamp ash bodies in the Orions), the sound differences are CLEARLY audible ACOUSTICALLY. That is to say, play 'em back-to-back BEFORE you plug 'em in and you can clearly hear the difference the two construction techniques make towards tone. The set-necks are much more lively and have a pronounced midrange coloration (that was the desired effect of the original EMW COTM that both my Orions copy). The thru-neck Series has a sound with more lows and less mids...the low freq. fundamentals are much more pronounced...the thing just plain goes deeper than the set necks. For clarity of individual notes, i.e., note separation: the Series is superior. For warmth: the Orions win. Plug them in, and you have those intrinsic qualities, with the added flexibility that Alembic electronics possess.  
 
 
Which one is better? Depends on what you define as better!
 
Bottom line is that everyone's got a different set of ears and tastes: play EVERYTHING and decide for yourself.  
 
Cheers,
 
Kevin

[bkbass]

Mica/Rami, hello and thanks for the replies. It is interesting to me that the ebony has that much of an affect on the sound. Clearly the same construction and woods with different electronic packages would seem to confirm this. However,I to experience this same wonderful sound out of Jelly and her brother which has a maple/purple heart neck and the wider rogue shape. Same body style both in coco bolo. That's why I assume the electronics package had something to do with it. Mechanically,when I pluck them side by side the G,D and A strings sound identical. The E string sounds darker on Jelly because of the PH. I must stop and appologize to this threads contributors. I figured Rami would be following this thread and would be the best and fastest way to get a response. I would ask that this discussion be brought to a new thread. Mica,I e-mailed your mom the other day with some requests/plea's/guidance. So perhaps,after speaking with her, I could ask you to respond by kicking off a new thread. Mele, I have several fretless from various builders three from Alembic(so far) I find that with all the variables of the different instruments I can still coax a woody growl out of any of them depending on how I use my hands. Bolt on necks,set necks,neck throughs, coated fingerboards EI,EI,OH all may or may not make a difference on the production of THAT sound. However,some construction combo including wood density within the same species may make it easier than others to hear that sound.By having both style Alembics you have two ways to achieve it. What tool box has a single screw driver in it?

[bigbadbill]

Whilst I'd agree (speaking from experience) that different neck constructions are a factor in the sound of an instrument, it has to be remembered that each individual instrument will sound different regardless because even the same type of wood grows differently from tree to tree and therefore from piece to piece, just the same as we are all different. I'm a huge Rickenbacker fan, and have a wealth of experience playing these instruments. I've owned around 8 or 10, have played hundreds, and every single one of them has sounded different, even before plugging in. Same strings, same set up, different tone, in EVERY SINGLE ONE of them. So it really isn't quite as straight forward as neck thru vs bolt on, or even maple vs mahogany or whatever. All maple (or whatever) instruments may have similar characteristics (describe them as you will) but they will not sound the same, even in the same body shape.  
 
I think the soundbytes idea is great as  a reference. Bear in mind though, one person playing an instrument will sound different to another playing the same instrument. Rami's comments about Jazz basses are a case in point. Rami is obviously a great fan of the Jazz Bass, and rightly so; its track record cannot be argued with.  
 
However I have played dozens and dozens of Jazz basses from all eras and have never in my life got a decent sound out of any one of them (well, there was a '76 with EMGs which was ok). I've absolutely hated all the newer ones I've played, utterly detested them. But as a case in point, a few years ago a bought an early Tokai Jazz Bass. I took it to rehearsals and it sounded awful, no matter what I did. I then took it to my luthier for some work, and one of the guys who worked there was like wow, cool bass and plugged it in. It sounded amazing, absolutely amazing, when he was playing it. I've experienced the same many times since. So I've come to the conclusion that Jazz basses and my technique just do not get along. And that is no fault of the Jazz bass, of the woods it is made of or the way it's constructed. I've also found the same with the majority of P-Basses, strangely enough.  
 
As for being shocked at the way a custom built bass sounds, I've had that happen to me. The first one I had built was lovely but far too polite for me; the second was way too thin and snappy (neither were Alembics). Both were my wood choices, and both were wrong (my fault). I now understand that with the possible exception of Alembics, maple basses are the way to go for me. Whenever I pick up a maple bass it works with my technique, rather than against it; given that I learnt to play on a Rickenbacker that may not be entirely surprising. But the sound I get out of a maple bass (bearing in mind they will all differ anyway) may not be the sound someone else gets out of one. And how I describe the sounds I'm getting is another issue entirely!

[bigbadbill]

Oh, I'd also agree with OlieOliver regarding Warwicks and growl; if I had to use an example of what I perceive to be a growly bass I'd personally cite a Warwick Thumb or similar. My Alembic isn't really very growly at all, as I perceive it.

[jbybj]

Bigbadbill's comments remind me of my long held fear of buying any instrument without fondling it first. There in lies some of the thrill of have an instrument custom made. You can theorize, plan, and have the best intentions, but you never really know what you'll end up with. My only Alembic, and Epic, I bought used because it seduced me in person. I think I  would rather pay $10k on a used Alembic that someone else designed as long as I could meet it first, than to design my own. James

[dfung60]

I think that many of these vague characterics are the byproduct of instrument setup which heavily influences how your hands (particularly the left hand for you righties) interact with the strings.  The physical effects of instrument construction play into this too - certain sorts of sounds can't easily be produced on certain instruments, but I imagine everybody here has handed their instrument to somebody else only to have it sound completely different!
 
Some of the most common and elusive sounds are mwah (on a fretless) and growl.  I think these are pretty much coming from your left hand fretting pressure.  Fret solidly and you'll get a regular note, but finger it lightly and you'll get mwah on a fretless.  What's happening is that the fingered end of the string is buzzing and slapping around on the fretboard which slows the attack and makes the note blossom.
 
Growl (at least to me) is dominated by the string hitting the fret tops lightly which adds some enharmonic content as well as more highs.  But I think a light touch with the fretting hand helps here to, again to slow down the attack of your notes.
 
This is where the setup of the instrument comes in.  If you have a lot of relief, like high action, or really stiff strings, then it's going to be harder for you to be able to delicately modulate your fingering pressure and get these effects.  That's why some inexpensive basses have such great tone - it's just the luck of how the neck turned out.  For mwah on fretless basses, the condition of the fingerboard and how it's shaped matters too.  I think you'll find that a fingerboard with grooves from string wear may be more likely to have the buzzy effect if the overall action allows for a lighter touch.  Often fretless fingerboards are cut with a ramp from the 4th fret to nut so the low notes will finger better (e.g., you don't have to press down so abruptly near the nut) which has the effect of lowering the action in the low end of the neck.
 
Set neck, bolt-on, or through body doesn't matter so much for this, as it's mostly a matter of getting the action to support your ability to play lightly.  The additional adjustability of a bolt-on (e.g., adjusting neck angle) might help if you're searching for more mwah though.
 
I saw a couple of other terms that popped up in the discussion that probably are more influenced by construction.  Examples of this would be woody and thump.  
 
The neck and body of the instrument are a very complex mechanical filter.  The strings vibrate, but the physical response of the instrument isn't linear at all.  Certain notes will be reinforced, others will be cancelled out, largely by the physical characteristics of the neck.  When you play a note, the neck will influence not only the fundamental but the harmonics as well and they'll all attack, decay, and sustain at different speeds.  That response over time (temporal response) is what we hear as the characteristic sound of this instrument.  If you had a suitable spectrum analyzer, you could see the frequency response of the neck as well as how it changes over time with the vibration of the string.  The choice of wood influences this, as do the individual characteristics of each piece of wood.  The body joint also has an effect, along with strings, pickups, etc.  
 
I suspect for most people, a woody bass is an instrument that demonstrates a frequency response that has a lot of peaks and dips.  The opposite of that, a flat bass might be less abrupt.  Alembics, with laminated through-body necks made of maple and purpleheart will lean strongly toward the flat side.  A Warwick, made of denser and oilier bubinga and wenge probably will have more extreme frequency variations and sound woodier.  I think that losing the maple in an Alembic would probably change the characteristics quite a lot which would be good for some and bad for others!
 
Thump is an interesting one for me.  I think this sound (think Motown) is all about having a strong attack that is muted very quickly and sustains at a lower level.  James Jamerson did this by physically muting the strings a lot, but I think that a bolt-on neck would probably be a big factor here too.  With a though-body, both ends of the string sit on the same piece of wood, and vibration from one end to the other is seamless.  With bolt-ons or set necks, the ends of the string are sitting on different pieces of wood, and a lot of energy will be lost where they connect (for you techies, this is a physical impedance mismatch).  Even with a carefully crafted joint which it tightly bolted or glued, there will be energy loss here, which translates to less sustain over time.  If you want a long smooth sustain, I think a through-body is hard to beat, but if you're trying to emulate a P-Bass, that monsterous sustain is working against you, even if you physically mute the string.
 
It's all really pretty complex and unquantifiable.  The fun part is that every instrument will be different, along with how you set it up and play it!
 
David Fung

[bigredbass]

It's understandable since most of us will never have the chance to walk in anywhere and try five or six Alembics that there's a considerable amount of wonder about ultimately what your new axe will sound like.
 
I can't imagine that you won't be able to find any sound known to man with a Series 2.
 
What I never see in these questions is the fun of getting a new axe and the discovery of its personality, and the ultimate blending of the axe and the player.  
 
Most of us have been around plenty, and know that an Alembic is going to be a discovery, a fresh outlook, a new direction brought on by playing something ultimately different than the 'off the rack' basses we all had up till now, if it's you're first.  
 
The magic is you + bass.  NO axe is ever going to be EXACTLY, 100% what you thought it would be.
Thank goodness.  It's magic and passion and discovery.
 
I'll MAKE it sound like me.  A Series 2 and any modern preamp or amp has more tone control than recording consoles did 20 years ago, so I'd find whatever I was looking for.  I'd still find it if it had one volume knob only, straight into the back of a power amp.  Ultimately, it's GONNA sound like me (or you).
 
Make no mistake, a Series 2 is a Mount Everest of a bass.  But laying in its case, it's as dead as a 2x4.  With you, it (or any instrument) makes magic, plugged in and doing it's thing.
 
The mystery of who it will be is the fun.  
 
J o e y

[bob]

Thank you, David, that's one of the most cogent and articulate discussions, on a very difficult subject, I have ever seen here.

[bigbadbill]

Great post David, and it touches on something that always irritates me; people who tell me that higher action always equates to better sound. They've obviously never heard me attempting to play a bass with high action! It just doesn't work with my technique. I can get a far, far better tone out of a bass with really low action because of the way I fret/strike the string.  
 
I don't know if anyone is familiar with the video/dvd of Meeting of the Spirits but I'll attempt to use it to illustrate this. Many bassists I know would be aiming for a bass equivalent version of Paco De Lucia's sound; i.e . big, round, strong, focused. It's a great sound. Unfortunately that's not what I'm after, or what I can work with. I'd be going for a bass equivalent of John McLaughlin's sound. Slinky, fluid, a bit buzzy. A little more mellifluous. So for me, high action and heavy strings are most definitely not the way to go. And David's so right, as I've argued so many times; it's amazing how a change in setup (even with the same strings) can affect the sound you produce. The sound produced is one of the factors I use to determine my ideal string height.

[mele_aloha]

Very good writing from all of you. Mica and David-, you are right on regarding mechanics and technique. I was focusing to much on the physical materials only and not the style and settings. The following paragraph from David is best said,  
This is where the setup of the instrument comes in. If you have a lot of relief, like high action, or really stiff strings, then it's going to be harder for you to be able to delicately modulate your fingering pressure and get these effects. That's why some inexpensive basses have such great tone - it's just the luck of how the neck turned out. For mwah on fretless basses, the condition of the fingerboard and how it's shaped matters too. I think you'll find that a fingerboard with grooves from string wear may be more likely to have the buzzy effect if the overall action allows for a lighter touch. Often fretless fingerboards are cut with a ramp from the 4th fret to nut so the low notes will finger better (e.g., you don't have to press down so abruptly near the nut) which has the effect of lowering the action in the low end of the neck.
 
Just to again let ya guys know that I wasn't inferring that I would be dissapointed if my Series II didn't have Growl. Again, I don't live anywhere near Alembic's that I can try out so I was just simply asking for your experiences. And as well stated by just about all of you the term Growl is all in the eye of the beholder. For Ones Growl might easily be ones horrible string setting or the strings and the way they strike them themselves.  
 
So I can see that we all agree that my friends cheap bass might just well be from the cheap wood or the high string settings themselves. And who said that one needs growl in every song. Not me!!!lol I was just really trying to become more educated as I will be persuing a fretless in the future and would like it to be able to produce Growl one way or the other. But I'm learning-, thanks to all of you.  
 
But this has been a fun thread as well as an informing one.  
 
May I apologize for druelling on all of your Series II's as well as other basses that are in here, I just can't help myself until mine comes.
 
Aloha to all, Paul da Plumma

[tbrannon]

Rami,
 
I'm asking this of you- because I know how much you love Alembics and I know that you've been sorely tempted by those Alembic Jazz basses we've seen on the Bassworld UK site.
 
Why not make a set neck Elan?  You'd get the set neck growl that you associate with your Excel basses and the slightly modified Elan body style seen on those Alembic Jazz's would be a tip o' the hat to the classic Jazz.
 
I'm asking because I'm hoping and saving for a custom somewhere down the road- it will be the Elan body style- the rest is yet to be decided.
 
Toby

[rami]

Hey Toby,
 
Alembic's Orion is a cool set-neck with an Elan style body.  I actually have an Orion 5 with a cool Purpleheart top that I love very much.  It's got great punch and growl - I'll post a picture of it soon.  It was featured on the Alembic store page once.  It has a total purple theme including the neck accent laminates and the Abalone shell inlays.  It's a real beauty.  But it's still very different from a Jazz Bass.  
 
Best of luck for your future project.  
 
Rami
 
(Message edited by rami on March 23, 2007)