Growl From set necks?

[mele_aloha]

Let me try this again, my thread below asks the question about whether Growl is produced from set necks as opposed to neck through's. Is this true? Someone answered regarding building neck throughs and set necks. This was not my question.
 
I'm basically asking if I am getting a neck through on a Series II am I still going to get that Growl that I get from my Excel?  
 
Is the set necks what make the growl or will I get the Growl from a full neck through bass?
 
Thank you, Paul

[lidon2001]

Check out Rami's comments here:
 
Rami's Comments
 
Wait - your already in that post.  Rami's experiences would be the best measure I think.  Next to Susan's & Mica's, of course.
 
(Message edited by lidon2001 on March 07, 2007)

[rami]

Hey Paul,
 
Don't get me wrong,  you definitely WON'T be disappointed with a Series II.  A Series II is more a virtuoso instrument that sings with clarity, definition, sustain and enormous fundamental.  It's all about tone.  You can still acheive an impressive growl through it's controls and your setup.  An Excel by virtue of it's construction has a naturally less  compessed tone, that is to say it's more of a Slam Bam type of instrument - big, powerful and punchy.  The Excel's Fat Boy pickup has a wide aperture and is very loud.  
 
Neck construction as well as wood types have a HUGE effect on tone.  As well, a Series II is defined perhaps as much by it's electronics as it's construction, one can make up for the other.  You can probably make a Series II sound approach that of an Excel but not the other way around.
 
If you can, just try a neck-through and a set-neck side by side and see which you prefer.  
 
Remember that an Alembic Series II is MUCH, MUCH more than a simple neck through bass.  It commands a premium price and it delivers a very premium sound. As well as being a magnificent work of art.
 
Good luck,
 
Rami
 
(Message edited by rami on March 07, 2007)

[mele_aloha]

Ya, thanks Rami for that very defined discription. I totally understand what you are saying about the Series II and infact I have one on order.
 
I am just asking a question which is kind of strange in that if perhaps I word it differently maybe this will help.
 
When I was talking to a friend of mine the other night after jamming, I was complimenting him for the growl that his bass produced. His bass by the way is one of these musiciansfriend specials for about $249 which has a bolt on neck. It does have in deed a pretty nice growl to it.
 
But what I've learned by being in this forum for a while and listening to others in here is that the growl is different from tone. It seems to me that growl actually is produced from somewhat of a less suffisticated method so to speak in that it is more of a mechanically produced vibration as the result of the weakness if you will, in the bolt on-set neck type of construction. It actually seems to be the product of less suffistication in the neck construction.  
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking it. I love growl. I am also leaving out the point that it is also produced somewhat from over modulation. I know I'm not decribing it right and my spelling is terrible but do you see what I am saying? this cheap bass he has does produce nice growl to it, even if he does have bleeding hands at the end of the night or whatever from playing the thing. Anyway he came back with this answer in his kind of stoned/drunk mode that it's the body wood.  
 
Now shoot me if I am wrong but I don't think it's the body wood on that $249 bass that's producing that nice growl.
 
I am just wondering that even through the beautiful virtuoso contruction of a Series II that actual growl is not as possible as a bolt-on style neck. Do you see what I am saying?  
 
Don't get me wrong, I am just drueling over all the Series II's and absolutely cannot wait for my bass. I know how clean and incredible they are, I am just wondering if growl itself as I know it is more previlant in a bolt on or set neck than a solid neck through type of bass or do these bass's actually produce growl also even with a solid neck like this?
 
I know that I have a top of the line Carvin with a neck through which was about $1,500 retail and it doesn't get the growl that my friends cheap bolt on gets. Is it in your opinion the wood in his neck compared to mine or is it the difference in bolt-on vs. my solid wood neck through bass?
 
Thank you, Paul

[mele_aloha]

Here's a follow-up question regarding the above.
 
Do you think that the feature of the month Excel with a set neck could come up with a better growl than let's say Raging Bass or Thunder and Lightning? Is this comparing apples and oranges?
 
Thanks, Paul
 
It's all yours friends, Thanks, Paul

[keavin]

It basically boils down to the physics of   construction a bolt-on physically produces more thump (of course electronics plays a factor also),but two peices of wood on-top of each other has that effect of the thump where as neck through are wood side by side offering more sustain..........but to compare apples & oranges, two basses with the same construction but w/diffrent electronics is like the orange it's gonna be way more juicier than say the apple.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just look an electronic package it will tell you how much juice the fruit has to offer.

[keith_h]

Paul,
In a neck through most of the tone and sound  characteristics come from the the neck itself. The body woods do have some effect but not as much as the neck. Likewise the note fundamentals are more pronounced since you do not lose energy on the neck to body joint.  
 
With a set neck or bolt-on the body woods have the most effect on the tone and sound. Do to the energy loss across the neck/body union for the fundamental these types of basses tend to have a mid-range bump. This is the cause of the growl you hear. I used ash as opposed to mahogany in the body of my fretless because it boosts the mid-range even more.  
 
With the right electronics and strings you can get close to a set neck or bolt-on sound with a neck through but I don't understand why you would want to. You already have an Excel which has the tone you are looking for so why not use it when the need arises? Likewise use the Series II for the music it sounds best with. Are you concerned you won't like the Series bass?
 
I will say that my main playing bass is a neck through Brown Bass. I also have a mahogany body 5-string Orion and an ash body fretless Orion I use when the situation calls for it. My longer term goal is to get a Series I which would become my main bass.  
 
Keith

[rami]

Jaco would always claim that his tone was in his hands.  Considering what he played, I believe there's alot of truth in that statement.  There are so many variables that affect tone from construction, woods, electronics to strings and player technique.  
 
We should not expect one Bass to do it all.  Sometimes an instrument can be like a suit, you change it for different events or situations.
You just need to try different Basses and see what you like.  You need not necessarily spend a fortune to get a great sound. Most top pros play simple passive instruments and get a great marketable sound.  
 
I recommend checking out Cream's 2005 Royal Albert Hall perfomance where Jack Bruce plays a late 1950's Gibson EB-1 set-neck, and then switches to a fretless neck-through active Warwick Thumb Bass.  Both have AMAZING growl.
 
Rami

[maclamb]

maybe it's just me =- but without hearing a sample, who can answer a question like this? One man's growl is another's mud or tone or whatever. Or maybe I'm such a noob that I should keep out of this.  
I went to Alembic yesterday and played rogue's & series II  through their preamp & frankly - NONE of them have the tone I was looking for (I'm not saying I can't make it happen using knobs and Superpass filter, or so mica said. She also said that alembic doesn't do midrange.) But with my bass and an ampeg svt 3 pro with the tube gain on full the tone is right there for me.  Alembics sounded deeper and more dense and the tone was not there.
How about posting some sample of what you are looking for. Here's mine. http://www.wakethemup.org/sound_samples.html
I love this tone. Maple body and neck thru top of the line ibanez and bart pups with vari-mid eq set to the about 1/8 turn off of the highest mid setting and the mid boost up almost full.
 *I* think there's plenty of growl & tone. But again, I find this all almost impossible to discuss without hearing  a sample.
 
 Now Mica said alembic does not do mid range and actually won't even use the term,. She prefers speaking in frequencies.  
If anyone can listen to this sample - the electrified log tone - note the acoustic-hollow overtones. And tell me what frequencies these are & what Alembic bass can create this without tweaking the heck out of it I would be grateful.
 
 I agree alot of the tone is in my hands, as I get that tone by combination tap-striking the string and normal pull across.
 
I can play a bass unplugged and listen the resonance & tell if my desired tone is there. My sense is for my tone it requires a neck through (log).

[olieoliver]

I agree with Rami and Jaco here. I've always felt that the largest factor in ones sound is their hands. Not everyone that plays a Rick' sounds like Chris Squire and not everyone that plays fretless Fenders sound like Jaco.
 
 The only thing I would add if one were to buy an off-the-shelve instrument. BUY THE ONE YOU TRY. I have in the past and currently owned/own identical instruments. Same brand, same model, same electronics, same woods....
And they would/do sound different.  
 
I currently own 3 Kubickis. Granted one of them has the earlier electronics and I would assume to sound different. But the other 2 are identical (with the execption of color) and they sound completely different. Neither sound bad just different.
 
On a side note I have to add, the more I read this forum the more I respect the people here. Most of the cats here I could and would love to meet and spend hours talking with, Rami being right up there at the top of the list.
 
Keep up th egreat work guys.
 
Olie

[hieronymous]

Rickenbacker 4001 & 4003 basses are neck through, and yet they are often said to be famous for their growl. I find that using both pickups on my 4001 full-on I get a deeper, rounder sound more like a Fender Jazz Bass, whereas with the neck pickup only I get more of a growly sound.
 
One thing I have heard is that bolt-ons like the Fender P & Jazz have more lower midrange and less of the deeper bass frequencies, whereas neck-throughs like the Rics are lacking in some of the lower midrange frequencies. I have experienced that to a certain effect when, during a show, I switched from my Ric to my Jazz, and the difference was night and day. The Fender sounded clear and really rang out, with a really punchy sound. It kind of blew everyone away how different it sounded. A couple of people even complained about the Ric, saying that I couldn't be heard because it wasn't cutting through. But I think that they were looking for and expecting the sound that the Jazz made, and while it's a great sound, I was kind of sick of it at that point and stuck with the Ric.  
 
Of course, a Rickenbacker and an Alembic are going to sound very different as well, for various reasons, not least of which being the different electronics.  
 
I can post some soundclips later (maybe not until after the weekend) - should I put them here or in maclamb's new thread?

[u14steelgtr]

Harry; the clarity of the notes at various frequencies has more to do with the sum of the parts and how they are integrated than; whether the neck is mounted to the body or the neck-assembly runs the entire length of the instrument.  
 
Every instrument has intrinsic properties which exist before the electronics are selected much less installed. The properties of the electronics if and/or when they are installed in an instrument will also have an impact on the realized sound of the instrument when the electronics are utilized. I?ll not discuss electronics here-in because the instrument and not its electronics are the topic.  
 
Solid materials and assemblies basically have some natural resonant frequency. I saw Tommy Emmanuel (a superb guitarist from Australia) pick up a guitar, tap on the soundboard, and comment that its resonant frequency was a B. Tommy was correct.  
 
I want to expand on the concept of material assemblies a bit. A drum is a good illustration of this.  A drum is comprised of many parts but changing the tension of the drum-head will alter the predominant resonant frequency of the assembly.  
 
The reason that many of the better speaker cabinets are assembled out of a combination of particle-board, plastics, and/or other synthetic materials is not simply to keep the cost low; it is also because these materials reduce the tendency for the assemblies to have pronounced resonant peaks which will reduce the assemblies ability to generate a even output throughout the audio spectrum.  
 
One of the known challenges with bass guitars is that many of them have resonant frequencies which eat certain notes while other notes are (relatively) too prominent.  Back in the 1980?s some people decided to tackle this problem by building replacement necks out of carbon-fiber and resin.  They ultimately created a company called Modulus Graphite Products (or something close to this) and tried to market these necks.  The company disappeared after a year or 3 as do most of the companies that try to introduce a new product to a market of musicians that are more focused on maintaining food and lodging than they are inclined to spend money to buy a neck to see if the claims of the marketer are at all substantial.  
 
One of the reasons that the people that are ordering/buying new Alembic basses obsess about something as seemingly insignificant and neck laminate wood choice and the number of laminates is that this choice really does effect the properties of the instrument.  The other reason is that most people do not have an opportunity to sit down with a sample of Alembic instruments which possess the variations which they are considering and try them out side by side.  So they post questions on the Forum, they ask each other questions, they debate the pros and cons of every variation which they are aware of, they play each others instruments, and they contact each other when they know that someone has a gig which they can drive-to just to ask if they can come back stage and try out some particular instrument or instruments.  
 
This should convey the majority of concepts I wanted to share with you.  The gist is that every instrument has intrinsic properties. Whether the neck is bolted-on or not is more of an attribute than a property. I do feel that specific methods of mounting or integrating the neck to/with the body are superior for specific instruments. If one does not assemble a suitable instrument to start out with; you might as well not even think about choosing electronics which will compliment or expand your playing style.  
 
Bear in mind that I am an aspiring Luthier so all of the biases associated with being such a person have colored my opinions.  
 
-- Eugene

[maclamb]

Makes me wonder if anyone ordering a custom bass and woods has ever gotten a nasty shock upon playing it for the first time. Hey! I thought this would sound like....
The flip side, of course, is to actually select the woods, etc., oneself and check them out.
I like the bit about the resonant freq of any instrument. Going to see if i can find mine...
All things have resonant freqs - including water and humans:
http://www.intelligentinfinity.org/watersenses.html

[rami]

That's very well said Eugene.  In my experience, the ultimate expression of neck-thru and wood laminate design are dramatically illustrated in my Dark Prince and Black Byrd Basses which are made entirely of ebony and purpleheart with 36 scales.  I can only describe their sounds as having a glorious natural chorus that must be heard to be believed.  The sustain goes on forever and the fundamental will shake the foundation of my house.  Imagine the cleanest, tightest, punchiest Bass tone.  A premium price for sheer Bass ecstacy, and worth every penny.  The only time I was ever moved to tears by Bass tone was the first time I played them.  Just spectacular!
 
Harry, I agree with your assessment of the Jazz Bass versus the Rick.  Geddy Lee said pretty much the same thing when he switched back to his Jazz Bass.  
 
I think the current American Jazz Bass is the best Fender has made yet.  The current neck employs graphite reinforced bars to strengthen and stabilize it.  The strings pass through the body to increase their tautness and resonate through the body.  The most impressive feature yet is their S-1 switching which changes the pickups from a parallel to series configuration.  That provides a HUGE, fat punchy sound that's just amazing.  I prefer the ones with the maple fingerboard for that extra brightness and definition.
 
After 4 decades, the current American Fender Jazz Bass has come a long way.  The best punch and growl from a mass produced passive Bass yet.  I think it's a re-invention of the most successful Bass ever.  I have the highest respect and admiration for it.
 
Rami
 
P.S.  Thanks for the kind words Olie - Pizza & Beer on me!
 
(Message edited by rami on March 08, 2007)

[u14steelgtr]

The majority of guitars & bass guitars that I see that have bolt-on necks use disparate woods in the neck and the body.  
 
So comparing an instrument on which the bridge and nut are mounted to the same laminations of ebony, purpleheart, and paduak to an instrument where the bridge is mounted to a slab of poplar or ash and the nut is set in to a maple neck which has a mahogany skunk-stripe to cover the truss rod is a novel comparison in which the distinctions will be abundant. .  
 
If however you were to compare a multi-laminate neck-through the body constructed instrument to a similar instrument where the neck is mounted to a body with a center portion which came from the same laminations as the neck; then the differences would most likely be substantially reduced.  
 
Regarding the shock of new instruments sound: I do not know the nature of the break-in period for new slab-bodied electric instruments. I find that with acoustic instruments the higher an instrument is tuned the more likely the owner of a brand new custom instrument will be initially disappointed.  
 
The break-in period on a new mandolin for example will reveal far more changes in tone than the break-in period for a new Jumbo or D size baritone guitar.  A Classical guitar which sounds fabulous at 8 weeks may not have sounded remarkably good when it was delivered 8 weeks earlier.  
 
-- Eugene
 
(Message edited by u14steelgtr on March 08, 2007)