Author Topic: HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head  (Read 418 times)

cntrabssn

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2004, 05:56:10 PM »
Turk,
 
Someone else mentioned trying to isolate the problem to the pre or power amp sections. Did you have any luck trying this? For example, if you plug your bass into the effect return, you'll just be using the power amp section including the master volume and graphic EQ. I'd like to know if the sound gets cleaner this way. And as suggested earlier, you could try listening to your effect send output with headphones (master at zero) or use it to drive another amp if one is available.
 
- nate.

turk713

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2004, 04:01:23 PM »
Hi Gary and Nate,
 
Gary, yes it appears that I got only the battery reading in the cavity.  I had also tried the cable end as you suggest and I got nothing.  Although I used to know significantly more about simple electrical testing, perhaps I'm now not doing it correctly.  I'll try again with the cable end tonight.  
 
Regarding head vs. cab placement, Gary, I have tried with various placements.  I have even had the amp indoors while the cabs were outdoors, and I just used long cables (heavy 12 guage for the speakers, and a couple different brandnames for the bass).  The amp was away from the cabs, and the cabs were away from all environmental structural vibration.  Your cautionary remark is noted and appreciated.  The guy who will be testing my stuff this weekend is the technical services manager for ElectroHarmonix & Sovtek.
He'll know how to go about it, or it's his hair and not mine!
 
Nate, I have not yet tried the Orion output gain all the way down yet, as you suggested I do.  I have it down to about 20% - 25%  Wouldn't lowering it to its minimum setting just mean I am running passive rather than active?  Regardless, I will try it out tonight as a test.
About the effects return, yes I plugged straight into it, and again I got the same distortion when I got up to around the same audible volume as before.  Of course that required going rather high on Master Volume.  I haven't tried the headphones idea yet.  I will try it tonight.  I will also see about coming out of the effects send and into  the return on another amp.
 
Thnx again, and more to come.
 
Turk

bsee

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2004, 04:14:53 PM »
Not to state the obvious but...
 
You did play notes with the volume up while you were testing voltage through the cable, right?  Otherwise, your non-reading would just be proof of how quiet Alembic electronics can be.

cntrabssn

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2004, 11:39:08 AM »
Turk,
 
Reducing the gain trimmer to it's minimum setting does not mean you're running passive. You're just reducing the internal preamp gain.
 
Anyway based on the effects return test, I'm thinking that you need to focus on the amplifier. By using the effects return as an input, you're taking most (if not all) of the Mesa's preamp out of the signal path. We can't say that the bass is too hot anymore, because you had to turn up the master a lot higher to get the distortion. If you run the headphone test with the effects send I think you'll find that the signal is clean there.  
 
Perhaps now you can focus on what's left; the graphic EQ, the master volume (which basically controls the power amp input sensitivity), the power amp, and speakers. I'm not sure if the graphic EQ is before or after the master volume. You did say that the graphic was shut off, so I'm not sure that's a factor now. Perhaps you can double check. You are using the proper output tap(s) for you speaker(s), right? At this point, I would continue to test plugged into the effects return.  
 
Thanks,
- nate.
 
 
 

dfung60

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2004, 03:09:08 PM »
Turk -  
 
You've had a couple of good recommendations here already.  It sounds like the output level from your Alembic is higher than the Boogie wants.  I have a Bass 400+ as well and don't find that it's overly prone to overdrive, but it is more sensitive than most of the popular solid state amps (SWR, Trace, etc.).
 
You mentioned that your bass sounds fuller than other basses when you plug it into another amp.  Your ear will normally equate louder to better until you have a chance to listen past the volume difference and hear the tone.  You may need to back the Alembic output level to a point where that volume difference no longer exists.  At that point, you'll have a clean signal and will have a better chance of really comparing the tone.
 
A bass with active electronics has a powered (therefore active) preamp between the pickups and the output jack.  The preamp provides a buffering effect that prevents the electrical characteristics of the cable from affecting your tone.  With a passive bass, you'll experience a loss of treble even with a cable of moderate length as the capacitance of the cable's conductors and shield begin to approach that of the tone cap in your instrument.  And you'll hear a huge effect on your tone if you turn the instrument volume down.  As the cable gets really long (100'+ snake-type lengths, much longer than you'd use), you'll also suffer a reduction in overall volume and in the bass frequencies.  With the active preamp buffering the signal between pickups and amp, you'll get the full highs and much less tone change as you roll the volume down.
 
Even if you turned the internal gain trimpot down to even lower output than a passive bass, you'd still have all the benefits of the active circuit.  
 
I'm not certain about how the Alembic circuit is designed - the internal trimpot may be in serial with the volume knob on your bass in which case they have exactly the same effect.  Alternatively, the trimpot may be out of the audio circuit and may control the gain of the preamp.  If this is the case (factory folks, chime in here!), then there may be some tonal differences between using the volume knob and the trimpot.
 
The net result is that you don't have to tweak the trimpot to check whether levels are the problem.  Just turn down the volume and see if the problems go away.  I think you'll find that they do.
 
If you read 8.85V DC on the battery, then you might consider changing it.  A fresh battery will read over 9V.  This one isn't too bad, but a fresh battery would be best for this debugging.  As the battery level decreases, you will progressively lose headroom on the internal preamp.
 
To read the output level, you need to set your voltmeter to read AC voltages, then connect the test probes to the hot and ground of your bass' output jack.  Because this is AC, positive and negative (red and black probes, usually) don't matter.  You don't need to take your back cover off to do this, just plug in a cord normally and hold the probes against the tip and sleeve of the other end of the cable (obviously, you won't be plugged into the amp!).  
 
Hit a note, maybe an open A or open E.  The voltage it stabilizes at will be the approximate RMS output voltage level of your bass.  With instruments close at hand, I read 0.08V for a passive Fender P-bass, about 0.11V for and EMG-equipped Modulus, and 0.32 for a Series I Alembic on batteries.  The EMGs would already be considered hot relative to a passive bass, and my Series I is 3x that level.  That's a +6dB setting which would definitely cause overload on a sensitive input.  I have the gain trims set moderately low on this Series I, but the output level is lower with the external power supply which I normally use vs. the batteries that I used for this test.  At this level, I would definitely have had overdrive problems with my wireless transmitter.  
 
The typical output level of a standalone preamp would probably be in the 1.0-3.0V range.  With a Series bass, you can approach the 1.0V range when the trimpots are cranked and drive a power amp directly, although probably not to full power.
 
With a solid state amp, the 0.3V output would be noticably louder and probably too hot without turning down at the instrument.  In the Boogie, you'd be pushing it pretty hard.  I didn't realize I was cranked quite this far and would probably back off to less than 0.2V to make it easier to switch instruments.
 
I would definitely look at backing that output level off significantly and see if that fixes the problem.  If you overdrive the preamp stages of the Boogie, it won't really get any louder that if you were feeding it a signal at the proper level, but it will sound bad.
 
Finally, I would try testing some other basses through your rig to see if there's really a problem there.  An EMG or other active pickup bass would be the best test by far.
 
Good luck,
 
David Fung

bigredbass

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2004, 08:34:36 AM »
Turk:
 
Bass 400s have lots of tubes, are you sure about them, particularly your input section tubes?
 
More to the point, have you talked to MESA themselves?  In my experience they are REALLY committed to happy customers.
 
J o e y

turk713

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2004, 12:50:44 PM »
Hi all,
Following this weekend I'll reply to the last posts, plus I'll then have had lab tests done on the Mesa pre and power amp outputs plus that of the Orion.  
G'weekend,
Turk

turk713

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2004, 03:31:39 PM »
Hi folks,
Well, this past weekend yielded nothing I wanted to yield.  I got buffooned by the ElectroHarmonix guy.  He wrote down no readings for me, contrary to my orders to do so and to which he consented.  In addition, he changed the tubes for another kind and changed a preamp tube for another kind.  I got home and tried things out and within two minutes my amp crackled and shut all the way off and won't turn back on.  By now I am out of the picture, guys.  This is too much, too long, and I find that I can trust techs anymore.  
 
So thank you for your help.  Unfortunately, I have no info that will help you help me further, and I have a whole new problem.  I cannot afford this anymore.  I might quit playing altogether.  I no longer enjoy it, and I play in fear that something will go wrong, and certainly it is way too costly by now.  I do not know how long it would take me to get over all that even if suddenly all was well.  I don't know what I will do now.  Even if it's just the fuse, I will always wonder what caused it to blow and when it will happen again, and I will always wonder what else will happen without a moments notice, due to whatever is really going on, and due to not knowing exactly what this guy did and did not do. Maybe I need tons of encouragement; I don't know.
Turk

turk713

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2004, 03:35:23 PM »
CORRECTION to my last post: the last sentence of the 1st paragraph should read ...can't trust... rather than ...can trust....
 
Turk

locutusofborg10

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2004, 05:42:06 PM »
just an idea...when and if you get your amp working again sell it to someone who plays a fender...what do they know anyway...don't give up, though.  if you ever make it into NYC look up jeff bloch's amp and guitar wellness center in brooklyn, he'll get it right.  he's been doing it for me for over 30 years.  if you want the number e-mail me and i'll be happy to give it to you.

dnburgess

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2004, 10:54:01 PM »
It might be a bit late to chime in here - but I took a bunch of Alembics to a dealer and played them all through his Mesa 400+ (into an Acme B2) and they all sounded great. Admittedly that was at shop volume, not gig volume.
 
David B.

gare

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2004, 06:28:37 AM »
Turk
OWWWW..He replaced all 12 power tubes ? And the pre-amp tubes ? Plus his service charges ?
Sorry to hear this is getting worse, it can be very frustrating and depressing. But I wouldn't give up just  yet. Before you stick another fuse in..you may want to take a peek in there and see that all the tubes are properly seated (with power off of course), and see if there are any charred parts. I would also contact Mesa's service department and see what they now recommend for the new problem, they may also be able to recommend someone near you thats aurthorized to service their products.
Before the amp went out, how did it sound ? Any better ?
Seems a shame to give up on the amp,unless of course there's some hidden major problem.
Good luck..and have a great holiday !
Gary  

dfung60

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2004, 06:59:55 AM »
Turk -  
 
I'm sorry to hear that you experienced bad tech disease.  The sad reality of the world is that diagnosis and repair (of anything really) is an art and that there are very few artists around.  I have a lot of high-tech electronics around home and I really cringe when I know something isn't right.  Replacement would be expensive; trying to get it fixed, probably too expensive and unlikely to really solve the problem.  :-(
 
The good part about your rig is that it couldn't have been better designed or built when it came from the factory.  The bad part is that it's probably an order of magnitude more complicated to work on than most solid state amps, and that fact that it's filled with vacuum tubes makes it really expensive to work with as well.
 
Under normal wear, it's possible that it could be all the tubes just getting old.  For that (the tired amp syndrome), replacement of tubes (about 18 or so if I remember correctly for the Bass 400+) is the right place to start.  But when you get a catastrophic failure it's more likely that another component, perhaps a cap or even a resistor has failed.  This throws the amp circuit out of whack, gets you weird distortion and non-linear response, and ends up frying some of your tubes.  A tech that's not experienced with working with this amp may only see the fried tubes and hope that replacing them will fix the problem.  All that will happen is that it will repeat, as appears to be your case.
 
Even an amp tech that works on Marshalls and Fenders will be scratching his head with the Bass 400+.  Guitars amps are a lot simpler - 2 or 4 output tubes in the power section instead of 12 that need to be carefully matched.  To set bias and get the tubes working properly, they need a suitable speaker simulator or load (tube amps have no output with no load).  If you use a Power Soak for Marshalls, your Boogie will reduce that to a pile of smoking carbon before it's even coming close to stress.  I've got old SVTs as well.  I love the sound and can tolerate the weight, but getting it worked on is a nightmare - lots of otherwise talented people say they can work on it, but results have been pretty spotty.
 
If a component in the power amp got cooked, the bias of the output circuit may be off.  The tube associated with this part of the circuit may operate cold (which gives early distortion) or too hot (which gives a different kind of distortion and causes the tube to fail more quickly).  The tube will test bad after being in this environment, but putting a new tube in will just kill it again.  The tech needs to test for this problem individually on each tube.  
 
You may also be aware that Boogie amps don't have adjustable bias.  In a Marshall, when you have a partial component failure, the bias voltage may shift, but you may be able to adjust a trimpot to fix the problem, at least temporarily.  No dice on the Boogie.  They have a proper bias voltage that the tech can measure for, but to prevent your needing to have a highly competent amp tech, Boogie made the decision a long time ago to set a fixed bias voltage, tell everybody what it was, and require you to buy tubes that were pre-tested to operate properly at that voltage.  If you have the wrong tubes, it won't work optimally just plugging new tubes in.  Old tubes could tolerate a higher bias voltage than new ones, too.  A good amp tech will confirm the performance of the circuit, use the right tubes, or can make the adjustment to the circuit to adjust the bias if necessary (generally, this requires substituting a big huge resistor for each power tube).
 
Since this last fix was clearly a boner, the tech needs to live up to his screw up.  Asking him to fix it more when he doesn't know how to probably won't help (make sure that your work wasn't done by somebody else in the shop first).  If they can't get it fixed properly, ask for your money back.  If they won't do that (grrr, all those tubes), then see if you can at least get your labor back.  Find somebody else and get it fixed right - it sounds like your in NYC, so you have a better chance than most to find somebody good.  If that doesn't work, send it to Boogie.  Unlike most amps out there, this one is probably worth it if it's not something really catastrophic inside.
 
One other piece of advice...  If you have to drive to work everyday, it would probably work best if your only car wasn't a Porsche.  Perhaps a bland but super-reliable solid state amp would be a good gear addition, if for no reason other than a backup amp.  I pick Porsche intentionally for comparison.  I've owned a couple including one now.  They are really well engineered and really well built, as well as being sublimely sporty.  When things are good, you really can drive them every day without worry.  But when they break, you can expect so not see it for a while and it's going to cost a lot of money to get back.  So, you just need to balance whether this is the right amp to depend on.
 
Best of luck, and never give up.

lbpesq

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2004, 07:35:32 AM »
Turk:
 
If you had a problem with your Alembic, would you contact the local tech advertising on Craig's list, or the folks in Santa Rosa?  Same thing here.  Contact Mesa.  I've played through a Boogie for 18+ years.  On the few occasions where I've had a problem, a question, or desired a modification, they were EXTREMELY helpful.  I think the Mesa people must have graduated from the same business school as the Wickershams.  I know it can get very frustrating, but don't give up playing!  Take a moment.  Breath in.  Breath out.  Let it go.
 
Happy Festivus Everyone!
 
Bill, tgo

jacko

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HELP?! -- DISTORTION with Orion bass and Mesa tube head
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2004, 08:18:40 AM »
Turk.
Surely the work carried out by the tech will be covered by some sort of warranty. Don't know how it works in the US but in the UK we have a trading standards organisation to look after the rights of the consumer in such cases. At the very least you should aim to get enough in damages to have the amp properly repaired by Mesa.
 
graeme