Author Topic: Filters  (Read 399 times)

gare

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Filters
« on: February 03, 2005, 10:36:06 AM »
I haven't found anything so far in my search..but are the filters in our wonderful basses all the same ? From model to model ? Or are they specific per model ?  
As an example, are the filters in a Signature and a Series I the same ?  I understand the difference of the  Q switches/resonance controls.  
It's a curiosity thing.
Gary

palembic

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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2005, 12:16:14 PM »
Hi Brother Gary,
 
how are ye??
The filters are the same, the Q-switch-things are different.
Please forgive me my lack of memory but we have this very good site researchers like brother Dave who will find the requested thing IMMEDIATELY for you.
So You have the  
0 db to +6 db two position switch
I think there was once a  
0 db to +9 db position switch also.
You have the  
0 db to + 6 db to + 9db three position switch  
Yo have the  
0db to + 9db to + 12 db for the Signature and Series I electronics.
ANd you have the
0db to + 15db continuously (CVQ) for the Series II electronics.
Of course you have Brother goldfish Bob  with the onboard half SF-2 on his custom Rogue which is FAAAAAAR out of my league from filter and Q point of view.
But for guitars -except the Bob ...thing ...all FILTERS are identical.
 
Of course ...it is only MY memory.
 
Paul the bad one

bsee

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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2005, 12:34:39 PM »
Actually, you have:
 
1. The 0 / +8 dB 2-position (standard anywhere there is a Q switch on a non-series instrument)
 
2. The 0 / +6 dB / +9 dB 3-position (standard on Series I, upgrade on lesser models)
 
3. The 0 to +15 dB CVQ (Series II only)
 
I discussed some other wild options with Mica most of a year ago, so other combinations are possible, but they will cost in both time and money since they would have to pass Ron's bench.

Bradley Young

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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2005, 01:03:33 PM »
I can't understand why the Q switch/dial unit is in dB.
 
Q, as I understand it, specifies the bandwidth, and is simply a ratio.
 
I haven't ever heard discussed the actual slope of the Alembic filters, but maybe that's secret sauce.
 
Brad

gare

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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2005, 01:12:05 PM »
Brother Paul..I'm just fine, hope all's well in your hemisphere.  
I've found alot of info on Q controls and boost switches, and I have those concepts down from working with modular synths. But I've haven't spotted anything describing the filters. It would make sense to use just one filter/pc board tho.  
So I just had to ask.
 
Oh..and next time, have a lager for me !
G

bsee

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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2005, 01:39:28 PM »
Brad, we've had that discussion.  The Q switch isn't really a Q switch at all.  The filter is a low-pass, and the Q switch controls the amount of boost in a band centered on the filter's cutoff frequency.  

cntrabssn

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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2005, 01:43:52 PM »
Brad,
 
I sometimes wonder the same thing about how Q is expressed. I THINK Q is the ratio of level (at a particular frequency) to bandwidth, so changing the level or the bandwidth changes the Q. Maybe that's where it comes from.
 
The low pass filter slope is 2nd order, or 12 dB per octave. I believe a club member named Werner posted some really good info about filtering in general. You can search the club for his posts. Perhaps some other helpful club members might even dig them up for you.  
 
Hope this helps,
- nate.

gare

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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2005, 02:36:57 PM »
A 12db filter will be 6db on either side of 0 for a given waveform, like a sine wave.
So its actually +/- 6db.  
Think of the filter as a broadband parametric eq. The filter control sets the center frequency. The Q switch  boosts the signal at the center frequency by a set amount, be it 6/8/9 db.  
Not having a Series II bass to verify, but I believe the Series II has both frequency and bandwidth controls, plus boost switches.    
A filter is nothing more than a sophisticated/specialized equalizer.  

dfung60

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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2005, 02:57:28 PM »
The discussion is pretty close, but not exactly right.
 
A full parametric EQ lets you control the center frequency of a tone control, the bandwidth or group of frequencies that the filter effects, and the Q factor or the sharpness of the filter's effect.  The type of a filter is also a factor - these parameters define a bandpass filter that lets a range of frequencies through and attenuate anything higher or lower than the passband; shelving filters (a high- or low-pass filter) affect only frequencies below the passband or above.
 
The Alembic filters with Q-switch are semi-parametric.  The knobs and switches let you select the center frequency and the Q-factor, but not the bandwidth which was preset at the factory.  The filter is also configured as a low-pass filter.
 
The effect of the filter is like there's a resonant peak at a certain frequency.  Everything below the resonant frequency passes through to the output.  As you turn the tone knob, this resonant frequency is moving around.  When the Q-switch is set at 0db, the circuit acts pretty much like a passive tone control  When you flip the Q-switch to the +9db position, there's a bump introduced into the frequency response of the bass - lower frequencies are unchanged, notes at the center frequency are boosted by 9db (a lot, that's 8x the voltage!), and notes higher than the passband are filtered out.  There's no knob to tweak the bandwidth, but the Q switch is making a peak of 0, +9, +15, or whatever db in this range.  This radically effects the way you hear the sound.  This is also why the effect of the Q-switch is expressed in dB - it's the ratio of output levels in the affected area, and that's what dB are for.
 
If you flip the Q-switch to the high Q position and turn the tone knob you'll hear a sweep like a wah-wah pedal.  That's the resonant peak sweeping through the frequency spectrum of the instrument.
 
There's other more obscure effects as well - for instance, active tone controls can cause a phase shift that depends on the frequency.  Even beyond the parametric characteristics, this is one of those things that you can easily hear but probably can't describe in any meaningful terms.
 
David Fung
 
Obviously you can build a full parametric EQ.  On the instrument it probably didn't make sense to do that - it's hard enough to grok the effects of the controls that are there, much less add additional ones that widen the tonal effects.  If there had been Q- and bandwidth-switches, it would likely have caused a lot of confusion among users.  

dfung60

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2005, 03:01:22 PM »
The discussion is pretty close, but not exactly right.
 
A full parametric EQ lets you control the center frequency of a tone control, the bandwidth or group of frequencies that the filter effects, and the Q factor or the sharpness of the filter's effect.  The type of a filter is also a factor - these parameters define a bandpass filter that lets a range of frequencies through and attenuate anything higher or lower than the passband; shelving filters (a high- or low-pass filter) affect only frequencies below the passband or above.
 
The Alembic filters with Q-switch are semi-parametric.  The knobs and switches let you select the center frequency and the Q-factor, but not the bandwidth which was preset at the factory.  The filter is also configured as a low-pass filter.
 
The effect of the filter is like there's a resonant peak at a certain frequency.  Everything below the resonant frequency passes through to the output.  As you turn the tone knob, this resonant frequency is moving around.  When the Q-switch is set at 0db, the circuit acts pretty much like a passive tone control  When you flip the Q-switch to the +9db position, there's a bump introduced into the frequency response of the bass - lower frequencies are unchanged, notes at the center frequency are boosted by 9db (a lot, that's 8x the voltage!), and notes higher than the passband are filtered out.  There's no knob to tweak the bandwidth, but the Q switch is making a peak of 0, +9, +15, or whatever db in this range.  This radically effects the way you hear the sound.  This is also why the effect of the Q-switch is expressed in dB - it's the ratio of output levels in the affected area, and that's what dB are for.
 
If you flip the Q-switch to the high Q position and turn the tone knob you'll hear a sweep like a wah-wah pedal.  That's the resonant peak sweeping through the frequency spectrum of the instrument.
 
Obviously you can build a full parametric EQ.  On the instrument it probably didn't make sense to do that - it's hard enough to grok the effects of the controls that are there, much less add additional ones that widen the tonal effects.  If there had been Q- and bandwidth-switches, it would likely have caused a lot of confusion among users.  The circuit also is only set up to have a resonant peak.  It could easily have a notch instead, sucking out the sound in the passband, but again, it's getting really complex and not very user friendly.  
 
There's other more obscure effects as well - for instance, active tone controls can cause a phase shift that depends on the frequency.  Even beyond the parametric characteristics, this is one of those things that most people can easily hear but probably can't describe in any meaningful terms.
 
David Fung

dfung60

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2005, 03:04:25 PM »
Sorry about the nearly identical double posts.  I seem to be having a patience problem when posting the last couple of days.  I realized that I had gotten that last response out of sequence and dived for the stop button expecting to terminate the first posting.  Obviously, I wasn't quite quick enough!
 
David Fung

gare

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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2005, 03:29:01 PM »
Thanks Dave..I'm not always the most articulate when trying to explain somethings.  
G

rover

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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2005, 08:10:58 PM »
And now for the questions from someone who doesn't speak the languages of electrical or audio engineering...
 
Is there a point at which settings on an SF2 could counterbalance Q settings on your bass?  And as long as I'm rambling about SF2's (just got mine; amazing), what is the impact of the A channel controls when playing in mono?  All of the manual diagrams show the A channel set to  consistent levels, but I'm not sure why since tweaking them in mono introduces new tones.  
 
To those who've never experienced an SF2, it's like having a small box with a few hundred different basses inside.  Worth every cent.
 
Any information/edification would be much appreciated.
 
Rob

lbpesq

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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2005, 08:43:10 PM »
Rob:
 
Been there, done that.  The manual was basically a mistake.  The settings that change on one side can be set on the other just as effectively.  They never meant for one side to always be the same.  Both channels work in either mono or stereo modes.
 
Bill, tgo

Bradley Young

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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2005, 08:47:11 PM »
Bob,
 
I have read through many (maybe all) of the discussions on Q switches/dials, and I can't remember having seen a discussion of the classical definition of Q as it relates to the specific Alembic implementation(s) (specifically the fact that Q isn't measured in dB).
 
My apologies if this is duplicate or redundant material; I was still confused after having read previous discussions and other (rather heavy) material on filters.
 
Brad