The value of alembic instruments

[lostbass]

i have noticed in the past few years of collecting and playing guitars and basses that the alembic lineup has been significantly devalued by the vintage press and in a general sense at auction sites. i have purchased 2 excellent spoiler basses for less than 1,000 dollars (real ones) in the past few years and have found them to be amazingly good values and fine players with professional parts and construction. so, what is the deal. i am gonna just keep buying and wondering why a (brand name) reissue costs more than my spoiler(s).

[kungfusheriff]

The vagaries of the market, plus the fact that since many Alembic instruments incorporate features ordered by the original owner from a pallette of options, by design you're buying secondhand somebody else's dream bass. That's my understanding, but like you I'll buy secondhand Alembics whenever I have money to spend until the wife gets tenure and funds my dream bass.

[David Houck]

Hi James, welcome to the group.  Perhaps part of the answer to your question relates to how much research buyers or players do.  For instance, while I may know a bit more than the average bass player about Alembic basses, I know absolutely nothing about vintage Fender Jazz basses.  I've never taken the time to do any research on vintage Jazz basses.  Another example from a slightly different tack, while I greatly respect Victor Wooten, his tone, and consequently Fodera basses, I have no desire to own a Fodera bass.  My focus is narrowed to Alembic.  So perhaps it is with others, that when they focus on vintage basses or used high end basses, their focus is narrowed to a few basses that they are familiar with, to the exclusion of Alembic and others.  I've been watching used Alembics on Ebay constantly for several years now.  It is my observation that their values, over several years, have remained fairly consistent, trading within certain ranges.  So I would disagree with your observation that Alembics have devalued at auction sites.  But then I think it not unreasonable that two people can get different impressions from the same data set.

[lostbass]

hi dave and alembic,
devalued alembics is a quote from the vintage press. it just got me looking closer at alembic
and made me realize that this was an unusual mix of artistry and skill, esp. in an era where guitars were becomng corporate assets, not the instruments i have loved since elvis and the beatles changed the world. i found this site because an ex-employee is selling the most beautiful bass on ebay (hi mica). i had to send pics out to every player i know. go see this bass if you have not. i like being a contrarian
and since i have tried almost every bass, i know a little bit about the whole market. the 1960 (brand name) bass, beat up and 10k plus or a custom alembic?? hmmmmmmmm, where is that custom shop site?? thanks for staying the course, you could be owned by a tv network which is owned by 2 initials. glad you are not.
off to ebay and another look at that bass. lostbass
                   

[locutusofborg10]

i have heard talk around town(NYC)that alembics are overpriced and not really of the quality that they're cracked up to be. i atribute this to lack of knowledge of the product and the fact that most bass players think fenders, foderas, etc are superior to alembics. this tells me that the majority of players around have never experienced what an alembic is. yes, there are other high end basses that are as good as alembics or maybe even better but none of them have the support that alembics do. ignorance of research to my mind plays a big part in this. us of inthe club know better and it's to our advantage that used alembics are so affordable. i hope it stys this way so that we can acquire these fabulous basses at a reasonable price.

[essencetimestwo]

Remember when you could get a used Les Paul for $500.00. Then Slash started playing one and they went through the roof.   Remember when a Hamer Chapparel was a $1000.00 guitar. Now my friend picks them up for $250.00 regularly. Some instruments value increase and decline with trends. It is true that Alembics may sell for a lot less used than new but they do stay consistent. Alembics will never go out of style and without a high profile player, Stanley excepted of course, chances are there won't be the same flux in value like happened when Floyd Roses went out and Strats and Les Pauls came back in.
 
     Geography is probably another factor. Fender is world wide so you can't count them. I would expect that people in NYC would favor Fodera over Alembic. You gotta root for the home-team. Next time someone points out that Fodera is better ask them who came up with the idea of active electronics and laminated exotic woods. Sadowsky and Schecter imitate the great designs that Fender created. Fodera is an imitation of what the Wikershams and crew have created. Believe me I don't intend to discount what Fodera is doing. They make some of the finest instruments I have seen in a while. Just like a player who is looking for his own sound, Smith, Fodera , Sadowsky, Shecter and other like companies take the influence of a tried and true design and method and twist it a little to make it their own.
 
Actually I hope nobody ever catches on and I can continue to collect used Alembics. Have you seen the prices on used Foderas and Sadowskys? Yipes!

[bsee]

If your exposure to Alembic is a 15-20 year old Spoiler or Persuader, I could see how you might think that $5000+ for an Alembic is overpriced.  I suspect that these would be the most common Alembics floating around NYC.  In their day, they were better than most of what else was out there.  They also seem to hold up better than a lot of other brands, but they don't suggest that a new one would be worth $5K.  
 
One other factor about Alembics is their versatility.  When I got my first Persuader, I was initially unimpressed by the electronics.  It took a few hours of playtime to get used to what they could do and understand just how elegant and capable they were.  If you just sat down in a shop to noodle for ten minutes, you might not get it.
 
Then, there are the basic laws of economics.  The number of players exposed to Alembic is relatively low compared to some other lines.  A combination of the low build quantity and laid back marketing strategies doesn't shove Alembic in your face.  Since there are fewer in the know about Alembics, there's less competition to purchase the instruments that show up on the used market.  Low demand results in a low price.  Alembic doesn't sell an inexpensive entry-level instrument to cater to the masses.  To do so would invite too many orders and the volume would have an impact on the way Alembic does business.  As more people want Alembics, the price of new basses will go up.  If they didn't, then the increased demand would also result in too many orders for the factory to handle in the manner they want to.
 
I hope to upgrade my Persuader 5 to something in a Balance K body shape within the next year or two on the used market.  As such, I selfishly hope the world doesn't get straightened out too quickly.  If it does, though, you can't argue with reality.

[richbass939]

I know I'm stepping onto marshy ground with my opinion only opinion.  Some people are devotees of one brand of something.  Others like several brands of something.    
Some people wouldn't be caught dead on anything other than a Harley.  Others say they are overpriced and not nearly as reliable or high performing as other bikes.  I know people who have Harleys and BMWs and Japanese bikes and like all of them for different reasons and applications.  
There have been posts on this club from people selling an Alembic because they played another brand for years and couldn't get used to the Alembic.  We all have our reasons for liking or not liking something.  And they are not all performance, playability, or sound reasons.  
Personally, I have never liked the way the P- and J-basses' headstocks and tuning keys looked.  I admit that is a REALLY STUPID reason for rejecting a bass that has been an important part of several decades of music history.  I know that but I still don't like the way they look and have never owned one.  
We have many good players to look to as examples of Alembic's great contribution to a band's sound.  But, there are only 15,000 or so Alembics out there.  There isn't that high a probability that people have heard one and knew what they were hearing.  I'm glad that Ron, Susan, Mica, et al never moved in the high production arena.  I don't think a company can crank out 15,000 or more per year and keep an eye on the details that we've come to expect.  
There are plenty of people who can afford a new Alembic.  The orders keep coming in.  Some of us aren't in the market for a new one but are jumping out of our skins at the prospect of picking one up for $1000 to $3000.    
I don't understand why the used Alembic market isn't hotter than it is and why they don't trade in a higher price range.  People buy what they like and they love the stuff that they grew up liking.  If they don't love Alembics any more than Fenders, Gibsons, Ricks, etc. then they are unlikely to give $4000 - $15,000 for one.  It's just basic consumer behavior theory.  
I am glad that I appreciate Alembics.  They are so far above the rest, in my opinion, I feel like I've been let in on the big secret of bass.  I'll count myself as one of the fortunate, relative few.  
(Edit - Sorry to repeat/rephrase Bsee.  Typing at the same time.)
Rich  
 
(Message edited by richbass939 on April 02, 2005)

[bsee]

Fine with me, Rich, I am usually alone out on the limb.
 
To check your numbers a bit, serial numbers are only approaching 13,500 right now, so there are fewer than you suggest.  Also, the same range is used to number guitars and basses, so the bass count is probably closer to 10,000 than 15,000.  I have a 1990 with a serial number around 5800 and a 1982 with a number around 2350.  They hit 10,000 somewhere between 96-97, so production rates appear to have been relatively steady over the past 15 years in the vicinity of 500 instruments per year.  
 

[richbass939]

I stand corrected.  I thought I saw some FTC pics that showed 15,000 +.  I looked again and one that is in progress is 13,800 +.
Your 10,000 in 96-97 is about right.  My June 95 is under 9200 and my 98 is about 11,300.  I don't know how many builders Alembic employs but 500 or so a year is a pretty good production rate, especially considering the attention to detail that obviously goes in them.
Rich

[dannobasso]

I don't think I could ever sell my Alembics. Perhaps just a twisteed disease I have. Jersey pack rat? Friends at stores have hooked me up on a couple SC deluxe and Spoiler xploiter. Mica and Susan enabled my fetish on 2 non customs. Flax and I are conducting business. I still watch ebay every day and watch bass sites. Value is a relative thing as the learned gentlemen have stated. Desire and need are my motivators. Money is secondary. There is a point in the brain that says, too much or ok by me. When it clicks... everybody wins! I might be selling off my Non Alembics for ... well.....more Alembics!  Ripper, 4003 Jetglo, Blk Tbird. Think of it as recycling dreams.  
I'll trade you that doll for that dog... and you're getting the best of the bargain!
Danno

[dadabass2001]

Danno,
I think this might have been asked of you before, but do your instruments have similar enough tone controls, scales, etc. to hear specific differences in wood voices. If they do sing with their own voice, how do you decide which bass to use for specific songs, or do you choose a worker for the night with a backup or two?
Mike.

[bigredbass]

Small shop / custom instruments always fare poorly resale wise in a mass market.  This is accelerated by the Guitar Centers/Sam Ash-ing of the market.  The vintage market for basses is at this time Fender, and Fender clones (MMs, Sadowskys, Mike Lulls, Laklands, and the other 40 or 50 we could think of) to most buyers are 'exotic' instruments.
 
As long as ALEMBIC is back-ordered and healthy, I'm tickled I can save on used instruments.
 
J o e y

[serialnumber12]

I paid $2,000 Cash in 1980 for (old #12) @ guitarcenter in san francisco,and to me that was a good deal!

[dannobasso]

Like children, they all have a different voice. For my Doomtree gig it's dark paint only. No exotic wood. I'm using Kay mostly and having Fierce built now. Set neck suits this 2 guitar band well.  For Doomtree when I get the bigger tours I can bring an 83 Spoiler Blk BEAD, XL 5 almost blk vptq, Kay XL blkw/ led's spoiler guts and inlays, and Fierce XL 5 Distillate guts led's and inlays. Set necks are not as crisp as my others buy thats why I have choices. For the CD I used the 83, the almost blk with F1X-QSC 1602 and acme low b2 miked under a blanket and DI.
Danno