Author Topic: Essence sold as Stanley Clarke model (Read 727 times)

rami · « **Reply #30 on:** April 17, 2005, 03:44:51 PM »

Hey James,

I agree. Alembic Basses are so custom anyway that in the end, it makes no real difference what you call it. Order an Essence with a small standard body with Europa/Rogue electronics, Purpleheart laminates, LEDs......

What you end up with is one awesome Bass - whatever you want to call it.

Alembic will Officially designate it by it's serial number, but who really cares? It's still an awsome Bass.

bsee · « **Reply #31 on:** April 17, 2005, 04:09:18 PM »

Well, here's where it matters...

Around the first of the year, a nearly new Essence/SC with Europa electronics, abalone inlays, PH neck lams and side LEDs went for about $2300. It had several upgrades over an SC standard (except electronics) that made it compelling. There were several buyers (bidders) interested, so the price was fairly set by the market. What street value would an upgraded Essence that falls short of an SC standard have?

There's a guy on eBay right now trying to sell one of these Essence/SC models. He listed it as having a $5700 value and got jumped on by several in the know. The bass has unknown electronics (four pots, maybe Epic?) and no fretboard inlays. If he thought he was buying an SC, he probably paid more than he would have had he known better.

As an SC standard, it would go $2000-2500 on the used market, but what is a short scale neck-throug with Epic electronics likely to bring in? $1500? Maybe a couple hundred more?

What matters most here is that these practices set up the semi-literate buyer to get scammed. The confusion is not uncommon, we see these sorts of discussions every so often and regularly respond to inaccurate eBay listings. I wish there were a way to make it less cryptic.

-Bob

bob · « **Reply #32 on:** April 17, 2005, 04:53:21 PM »

Just to throw out another perspective: how do you decide in which section of the Showcase you should post your photos?

I put mine under Rogue, because it looks pretty much like one if you ignore the knobs. But it has only a 'C' in the serial number (and in fact it was priced using Europa as the base model).

After a quick skim I noticed that son_of_magni faced a similar problem, and he ended up under Custom (My fretless):

Strange thing just happened. I was posting a pic on the MK section and when I looked at the serial number I realized it doesn't have MK in it, just C.

There's an interesting perspective from Mica on the subject further down in that thread.

Personally, I tended to go looking through Showcase to see what a body shape would look like. And I guess if an instrument has pretty much a standard body shape, and some pretty much standard electronics package, I would be inclined to call it a body with electronics.

In other words, I probably would not classify it as 'C' just because you added a Q or tone switch, chose a different peghead, threw in a few extra body or neck laminates, etc.

I guess it's all pretty academic, because there are so many variations that you can't hope to cover them with simple names, or encode everything in a serial number, unless you pick a model and don't change either the shape or the electronics at all.

Certainly when it comes time to buy or sell, full disclosure is important. But generally, I think the with approach is pretty useful.

malthumb · « **Reply #33 on:** April 18, 2005, 05:35:27 PM »

bsee,

I understand your point, but here's where I get to be a little callous. In a buyer beware, or better stated buyer be aware sort of way. If you are considering spending money in the used Alembic range, YOU need to make sure YOU know how to confirm the value of what YOU are considering spending YOUR money on. You also need to determine for yourself whether you value the instrument based on what you know about it and how you will use it and as compared to other instruments you can get for the same price.

I suspect that people that are taken by highly inflated prices are people who want to buy an Alembic just because it's an Alembic, without truly knowing what an Alembic is and without taking the time to find out.

I'll admit my viewpoint is probably callous, but I'll bet it's also fairly accurate.

Peace,

James

rklisme · « **Reply #34 on:** April 18, 2005, 06:13:06 PM »

James

I agree with your buyer beware scenario however how this thread started was that a supposed reputable DEALER in Florida sold a instrument as something that it is not. It maybe a great instrument it may sound and feel wonderful but it was not represented correctly. On the resale market if for some reason you need to sale your instrument you are not going to get what you thought you might because it is not what you thought it was. What you thought was a great deal when you purchased it based on what one might pay for a Signature instrument may now mean you payed to much.
I have been an Alembic owner for quite some time but didn't know squat about them other than I liked the sound until I joined this site.
I guess I am surprised that not one person other than myself looks at the dealer as having any fault in this. He had the serial number he sells Alembics and he chose not to inform the buyer properly of what he was buying. If he had done so we would not have this thread as a discussion because Perry, would have known exactly what he was getting. Not a Stanley Clarke Signature bass but and Essence with Europa electronics and a small standard body.

Rory

bsee · « **Reply #35 on:** April 18, 2005, 06:17:35 PM »

James, I was thinking along those lines after my post and considered a follow-up, but never made one. In a private sale, I'd have to agree with you absolutely. We should all be aware that a private seller may not provide a full and accurate disclosure, particularly since there's no reason to believe they know anything more than the buyer.

On the other hand, you really ought to get an absolutely full and clear disclosure if you're buying from an Alembic dealer. There should be no way in the world that someone should buy a new bass from a licensed dealer and then be confused about what they bought. While the industry may allow for it on garden-variety instruments, it's not something I would expect on an Alembic sale. I think dealers who order and offer these knock-off customs have a higher responsibility to the buyer than those selling the more straightforward models. Shouldn't the licensed Alembic dealer be the trusted place where a buyer would go to receive the education you recommend?

They may be too close to the business to realize that this confusion is occurring, so hopefully the feedback will reach them.

-Bob

malthumb · « **Reply #36 on:** April 18, 2005, 06:22:41 PM »

Rory,

I do share your perspective on the dealer's responsibility in this. My comments strayed from that part of the original post. I was basically focused on the aspect of the buyer getting what they perceived to be value for their money.

If the Dealer knew that the s/n was a K code and called it a Stanley Clarke, they mis-represented it. It's still up for debate as to whether or not the same bass with the same content is more valuable if it is an Essence contented up or a Signature contented down. Either way, the Dealer has to call it what it is designated as.

Peace,

James

malthumb · « **Reply #37 on:** April 18, 2005, 06:28:46 PM »

Bob,

Our posts crossed in cyberspace. Looks like you, me and Rory are in violent agreement on the dealer's responsibility on this one. They should know better.

Peace,

James

ajdover · « **Reply #38 on:** April 18, 2005, 07:29:03 PM »

As far as I know there is no law (other than truth in advertising, and the lemon law - correct me if I'm wrong) that holds a dealer responsible for a product that isn't what it is actually advertised as. There are so many examples of products being advertised as something they're not (think the Showtime Rotisserie BBQ), this forum does not have enough space to elaborate on them.

However ..

I've bought two basses from this dealer (if it's the one we're all alluding to ...). They were exactly as advertised, and I made sure to ask questions. Ultimately, it is on the buyer to ask. If they don't, and get something other than advertised, they shouldn't be surprised. They should, however, be a bit angry at themselves for not inquiring prior to the sale. The dealer is there to make a living, not be your buddy. Sad, but true. If he can get you to buy something and make an increased profit, it's good from his perspective. Does this make it ethical? Probably not. Does it happen? Yep, every day.

Of course, if a dealer keeps doing this, eventually word will get out and people will stop patronizing his business.

Think about it. We buy new and used cars. Would one buy a new car, for example, without asking about certain options, payment plans, warranties, etc.? Nope. A house? Hell no. Same goes for high-end basses. One should ask what it is and isn't. If one doesn't, then caveat emptor ... buyer beware or be aware, as has been previously mentioned.

I can only speak from my experience with this particular dealer. He's done right by me in two transactions in excess of $5K (one Alembic, one Pedulla). If it was on his site, and the buyer didn't ask questions, then it's on the buyer IMHO.

My two cents,

Alan

P.S. You can spec out an Alembic in so many ways ... I get confused just thinking about what the serial number should read .... However, in the end, it's still an Alembic. To me, that puts it head and shoulders above anything else out there, serial number/model be damned.

David Houck · « **Reply #39 on:** April 18, 2005, 09:24:33 PM »

If he can get you to buy something and make an increased profit, it's good from his perspective. Does this make it ethical? Probably not.

Without speaking to the particular case at hand (I don't know the dealer's side of the story), I would like to respectfully offer an alternative to the above quote.

The quote appears to state that if a business person can make more money for himself by taking an action that is unethical, then that is a good thing for the business person. (Perhaps what Alan is saying is that the business person may only think that it is a good thing.) I'm thinking it may be more accurate to suggest that if a business person can make more money for himself by taking an action that is unethical, then that is never a good thing for the business person. Unethical actions cause suffering for both parties. It seems to me that treating others with respect and compassion is more truly rewarding than living a life based on selfishness and greed.

Again, I'm not speaking here to the case at hand. Indeed, if the dealer is the one that many here appear to be thinking of, then past testimonials strongly suggest that they treat their customers very fairly.

rklisme · « **Reply #40 on:** April 18, 2005, 09:29:18 PM »

It is funny how we can make excuses in life to do the wrong thing but whatever happened to doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do? People can lie, steal, cheat, and it is victim beware. You should have known better! You didn't ask the right question! I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Do I know this happens everyday? Sure, does that make it right? I don't think so! I'm just talking about doing the right thing which didn't happen in this case. We can blame the buyer for not being a little more informed while making a purchase on a dream that all of us share, but do your really want to?

Rory

ajdover · « **Reply #41 on:** April 18, 2005, 10:07:05 PM »

To me, this is, in some ways (less so) like those who would sue McDonald's for making them obese. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head and saying buy this Essence, er, Stanley Clarke, er, Europa, er... Series I, etc. If a business offers a product, and someone buys it without asking questions about it, then they get what they get. To come back later and say, well, it's not what I thought it was ... too bad. If you want the product, then it is on you to ask questions before buying, period. If you find out later on that it isn't an Essence, a quarter pounder with cheese, something that makes you fat, well, that's on you.

Bottom line: there is personal responsibility. Case in point: I bought a Gibson RD77 Artist off of Ebay. I took a chance, and thought that the seller was selling an instrument that was as advertised. When I got it, it wasn't. Did I file a lawsuit? Nope. I didn't ask enough questions, bought it anyway. Anything after that is on me. I'm still trying to get it to where I want it. Again, on ME. All I could do is leave negative feedback (which I did.).

People make decisions to buy things. They make these decisions based on the information available. If they don't ask for more information, and take what is there, then they have no one to blame but themselves.

My two cents,

Alan

bsee · « **Reply #42 on:** April 18, 2005, 10:38:42 PM »

Alan, eBay isn't a supposedly respectable dealer. If the dealer who is supposed to be your information conduit tells you it's an SC, then what are you supposed to do? Call another dealer? Call Santa Rosa? The dealer is Santa Rosa's local presence and shouldn't by slipping things by people.

We're not talking about commodity items, a used Alembic in a generic shop, or a private deal here. The Alembic dealer should go beyond the norm to ensure that a buyer is satisfied. It should be the equivalent of shopping for Mercedes or BMW instead of a Ford. When you're paying $3K+ for a basswhen the typical instrument sells for under $1K, you deserve personalized service at a higher standard.

rklisme · « **Reply #43 on:** April 19, 2005, 12:13:11 AM »

Perry says,I recently bought a bass ADVERTISED as a Stanley Clarke model. I bought it from a well known Alembic dealer in Florida. This was my first Alembic purchase. It turned out to be an Essence with some serious upgrades.

Alan says,As far as I know there is no law (other than truth in ADVERTISING,

As far as I can see no one wants to bring a lawsuit towards anyone. We just want to be treated fair in the market place. If this was a back alley deal with a guy with a trench coat on then I would agree with Alan.
I don't feel that everytime I go to Wendy's I need to ask is there going to be a finger in my chili? Is that a real Cadillac motor or is that a pinto engine made to look like one? Is this really Coca Cola or could it be kerosene? Most of us expect a certain amount of truth from our major retailers.
The really cool thing about this site I find is how one of you might see somthing that is not right in the way of an Alembic product that is for sale and then go out to notify the rest of us so we don't get caught up in a scam or end up misled into purchasing something that doesn't seem quite right. I think that type of attitude is very welcome these days and one of the many reasons why we come to this site. It is nice to feel someone has your back!
Alan, I want to say personally that while I don't agree with you this time and there has been many times that I have, I appreciate the way you expressed your opinions without malace. Thanks for creating a little excitement for a guy that is housebound! I'm letting go of this one.

Rory

serialnumber12 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 19, 2005, 04:48:44 AM »

Alembic is not only the best ,but so are its Club members!