Fret buzz on D string.

[keith_h]

I have replaced the standard Alembic strings on my Orion 5 with a new set. The new strings are GHS light gauge Brite Flats. The gauges are .045 - G, .056 - D, .077 - A, .098 - E and .130 - B.
I am now getting fret buzz on the D string. When I have the desired action and relief in the neck it buzzes up the whole neck. With the truss rods fully loosened the buzzing starts around the 12th fret and up with a raised bridge. Raising the bridge really high eliminates most of the buzz but becomes unplayable for me. The string does not buzz when open with any of the setups. None of the other strings buzz at all.
I'm starting to think it might be related to the string sitting to low in the existing bridge saddle. Does this sound reasonable?  
If yes, is there a way I could test this out before contacting Alembic to get a new saddle?
Thanks for any help and thoughts.  
 
Keith

[mica]

The original slot for the D string is .065, so the new string is resting lower in the slot.
 
original new set difference .045 .045 0 .065 .056 -.009 .080 .077 -.003 .105 .098 -.007 .128 .130 +.003
 
You could raise the bridge somewhat and have all the slots cut a little deeper to the smaller sizes.
 
If the D string is truly the only one causing trouble, you can have it replaced an reslotted. Call us between 10-4 pacific time to place an order. The saddles are $15 each.

[keith_h]

Mica,  
 Thanks for the update. Glad to hear your feeling better after your surgery. I had all four of my wisdom teeth removed years ago and seem to recall it took 3-4 days for the swelling to go down.  
 
Yes, it is only the D string. I don't think the saddle will do the trick anymore. Just to see if raising the string in the saddle would help I built up the slot with couple of flat toothpicks.
Not scientific I know but it is cheap. I did not notice any appreciable difference.  
 
I am starting to think the problem is related to string tension. I have been using this same brand of strings on Jazz Bass and Vox for close to 30 years without problems. The difference seems to be the shorter string length on the Orion compared to the JB. This results in a lower string tension on the Orion and more string movement. By tuning the string up to F the buzz goes away except for one or two frets. I suspect minor adjustments would alleviate these. I don't have a tensionometer but the string seems to feel looser than the other four. I was also able to stop the buzz by really lightening up my playing. This is when I started to notice that the D was looser than the other strings. However I still buzzed when stretching the  string.
 
At this point I have ordered a somewhat heavier string to see if it improves the situation.  
 
Keith

[David Houck]

Shorter string length on the Orion.
 
What scale length is the Orion?

[keith_h]

34 scale for both but the distance from the tail piece to the tuning peg is longer in my JB by a little more than an inch. This results in the string being tighter to achieve the same note. The opposite is true for the low end of the bass. The E and A lengths from tail piece to tuner are longer and feel tighter on the Orion as opposed to the JB. The setup on both basses are pretty much the same as far as neck relief and string height.
 
This is why I think going to a heavier string will
help as it will have a higher tension and therefore less movement. It is also relatively inexpensive to try. I am not married to the exact gauging of the set so much as the type of string (I prefer ground round wounds over round or flat).
I can buy all of the strings in singles for a  little more than the set so cost is not a big issue.
   
I will say the .130 for the B feels and sounds much tighter than the original string and I am very happy with it's outcome. I should also note that GHS spec's the same strings for 34/35 scales.
 
Keith

[bigredbass]

.56 is a lot smaller than the .65 the bass was expecting.  'Ground wounds' (which include Brite Flats) are less tension than the Orion's original round wounds.  Buzzing the length of the fingerboard is the real giveaway, though, that it's a big surprise to the bass, tension and size-wise.  When cutting a new nut slot or saddle, we'd leave a few thousandths wiggle-room, and 10 thousands may be too big a difference.  
 
I always wonder what makes the string builders deem a set light, med-light, whatever.  Of the guages you mention, .45,.98, and .130 seem like a regular set.  Does adding a small D (.56) and A (.77) make it a light set?  
 
Before I'd start minor surgery, I'd order some BFlats close to the original guages (or at least the D and A) and just see what happens.  I BET it will settle right down.
 
But can you get BFlats in YOUR scale?  I know GHS is great about making lots of guages in their lines, but ARE you using the correct scale-length strings for your Orion?  Cutting off long scale strings to fit a medium of short-scale bass just wrecks the strings, and could cause what you're experiencing as well.
 
I used to use BFlats a long time ago and now use Boomers.  I've always had a lot of repsect for GHS as they've always been very consistent for me.  I came to them from Rotos, where it seemed I'd get a good ones sometimes, bad ones sometimes.
 
J o e y

[keith_h]

Joey,
 Once I came to the conclusion it was tension I ordered a .062 for the D string. This seems to me to be the least expensive option. Since the A is not giving me any trouble I figured I would leave it alone. As I said the scale is 34 so long scale is appropriate. I have always liked the BFlats and in 30 years never had any problem until this incident. As I said, once I figure out the gauges that work I don't mind buying them as singles since cost is not much different from buying a set.  
 
As far as what constitutes light, medium light or medium for GHS BFlats:
Light     = .045 (G), .056 (D), .077 (A), .098 (E)
Med. Lite = .052 (G), .065 (D), .084 (A), .103 (E)
Medium    = .049 (G), .062 (D), .084 (A), .108 (E)
 or  
Regular (short and medium scale)
 
Don't ask me to explain how they determine what the set type is.  :-)
 
 
Keith

[bigredbass]

Keith
 
Thanks for the sizes from GHS.  I'd suppose maybe they're 'weighing' the pull of whole set:  They use an 84 A in both ML and L, but the ML has a 65 D and M has a 62 D!
 
One other thing I'd look at ONCE you get the 62 installed:  Make sure the look of the saddle and nut depths look consistent with the other strings.  I'd be VERY surprised if it escaped Santa Rosa with a wrong depth, but we all have our off days . . . but I'd bet the 62 will fix it PDQ.
 
When I transitioned to Boomers, I'd been using the M set of BFlats.  I ran my four string Yamaha with a Boomer set of 50,70, 85, and 105, as I'd gotten used to that big G and D.  I was playing in rock bands with Fender heavy 355 picks and they were just the ticket. I always loved that GHS made so many guages, and really pushed their dealers to keep their singles selection in the wood box.  I really got to experiment because of it.
 
And oh yes, Mica,  
G E T   W E L L   S O O N ! !  
 
J o e y

[dmldds]

FWIW, Gary Willis has a technique of adding little spacers to the end of the string which lengthens it.  It's in his book (101 Professional Bass Tips - or something like that).
 
(Message edited by dmldds on May 05, 2005)

[keith_h]

David,
Good idea I never thought of that. I'm pretty sure the heavier string will resolve the problem but I might play around a bit with the spacer just to see how effective it is.
 
Keith

[dmldds]

Keith,
 
He uses those spacers that you use on computers to mount boards, etc.  If you get his book (probably a good thing; filled with lotsa good tips) he shows an example.  You could probably find something at the local hardware store or computer shoppe.
 
Cheers,
 
DML

[dfung60]

Hey, your problem here is those light gauge strings!  I don't think making any changes on the non-speaking part of the string is going to make any significant change in the tension since the pitch you're tuning to will be the same.  It's just that the light gauge strings have less tension than what you had before.
 
The bad part is that the neck's neutral state is not accomodating to this setup - if you have the truss rods all the way loose, then only more string tension will increase the relief and fix your problem.  If you really need to play this gauge (and it doesn't sound like that's the case) then you would really need to have a steam treatment on the neck to increase the natural forward bow of the neck.  Expensive and not worth it!
 
The heavier gauge string substitutions may be enough to solve the problem.  You might also try a different brand of strings.  Each manufacturer and model is a different set of core and winding wires and the tension of each string model will vary in ways that unquantifiable for the purpose of marketing 'em.  
 
I can't think of any reason for a ball end spacer other than to shift the entire string position around in the event that you don't like where the windings are ending up around the tuning machines.
 
Good luck,
 
David Fung

[dmldds]

This is an interesting problem.  I've been fooling around with my bridge (haven't touched the nut or the rods - the relief looks very good) on my SC after changing from the CX3's (strings) she shipped with to Fodera Diamonds.  In this case, I'm having buzzing only on the G string from frets 1-5 (relief looks good)...and the Fodera is actually slightly larger diameter (.106 vs .105).  I don't think I had the problem with the CX3s...so there must be something different in the tension between the two strings that's causing the buzzing.  Anyhow, I think I'm going to order another set of CX3's and see if it helps.
 
DML

[keith_h]

Just to update things. While I was able to diddle around and get the D string not to buzz most of the time I never could reliably eliminate it. I have received and installed the .062 D string and have since been able to get the bass adjusted and buzz eliminated completely. Guess I'll be custom ordering from now on.
 
Keith

[dmldds]

Keith,
 
Just curious...what type of string did you get (ghs??)