Author Topic: Filter cutoff frequency  (Read 1711 times)

82daion

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Filter cutoff frequency
« on: June 21, 2005, 09:52:46 PM »
Does anyone know the cutoff frequency for the filters in Alembic electronics?
 
Just curious.

mica

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2005, 11:11:42 PM »
The range is from 350Hz-6KHz.

82daion

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2005, 07:15:45 PM »
Thanks. Do the filters cut off at 3db/octave?

mica

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2005, 07:28:12 PM »
The slope is 12dB/octave.

goatfoot

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2005, 07:58:34 AM »
I'm no audio expert but that means that everything above 6 KHz is effectively filtered out when the filter is fully off.  Correct?
 
So does that mean that there are some upper harmonics that are always cut off on a bass with a filter/q elec package?
 
I'm asking because I'm seriously considering adding a filter/q to my custom bass with Orion elecs (v/p/b/t).  I like the way the bass sounds set flat but I would like the additional flexibility that the filter/q would add.  So would adding the filter/q change the way the bass sounds flat if I set the filter and q fully off?
 
Thanks,
Kevin

adriaan

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2005, 08:28:15 AM »
Kevin,
 
You set the filter's cut-off frequency by turning the filter knob. Everything above that frequency is gradually dampened.
 
Filter fully open sets the cut-off frequency at 6 KHz - so we're not talking about root notes. Filter fully closed is at 350 Hz - we're already way up on the fingerboard of a bass.
 
The closest to neutral that you can get is with the filter fully open and with the Q switch in neutral.
 
A low-pass filter always produces a slight bump in the spectrum at the cut-off frequency, so even if the filter is fully open then it is not completely neutral. When you engage the Q switch, then the bump is even more pronounced - produces a bit of twang.
 
Ask someone to turn the filter knob (with the Q engaged) while you're playing, and you'll notice a wah effect. (This is palembic's infamous third arm.)

bob

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2005, 01:09:51 PM »
Kevin,
 
Most of us contend that there are no useful harmonics for a bass  (with at least up to a high C string) above 6 Khz, so you should not be concerned about losing anything.
 
Keep in mind that many Alembics always have the filters in circuit, and have for a very long time now.
-Bob

82daion

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2005, 02:43:10 PM »
Thanks for all the info, everyone. It's nice to join such a knowledgeable board.

David Houck

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2005, 04:01:14 PM »
Kevin; in addition to what Adriaan and Bob said, the cutoff at 6KHz is not square but rolls off at 12dB per octave if I recall correctly.
 
edit: Whoops, Mica already said that!
 
(Message edited by davehouck on June 23, 2005)

sfnic

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Filter cutoff frequency
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2005, 05:39:13 PM »
And yes, for the purests who insist that there is harmonic information above 6k in a bass, there certainly is.  And it certainly colors the instrument's tone.  
 
However.  Time for a giant pile of arithmetic and assorted acoustic physics.  
 
(Exceptionally long post warning)
 
Let's look at a basic 4-string, 24-fret bass.  The highest fundamental frequency it'll produce is about 390Hz (G-string, 24th fret).  6KHz is another four octaves above that.  From a raw mechanical perspective (-6/octave), that's an overtone that's about -24db from the highest regular fundamental before the filter ever kicks in.  So, again leaving out the filter, the next octave point (12KHz) is about -30db, and the last octave point (24KHz) is about -36db.
 
So, even though there is string energy present above 6k, it's generally more than 24db down from the highest fundamental a 4-string can produce, leaving aside the pickup response.
 
We don't really need to worry about this rolloff, though, as it represents what the string is doing.  Which is, after all, what we're trying to accurately reproduce.  It merely addresses the question of what's present above 6KHz before adding in any additional losses the instrument system may impose.
 
(Also, what's above 6KHz includes some incredibly nasty crap such as thermal noise and RF interference.  If we're going to play in that space, we'll need to be able to separate signal from shit.  More on that later.)
 
Now, let's factor in the pickups.  There are three factors involved in determining a pickup's frequency response.  First, its electrical characteristics as coupled to the amplifier chain.  Coil inductance, capacitance, impedence, loading, etc.  Let's ignore that for the moment, since that varies from pup to pup.  Second, the pickup's magnetic aperature.  Again, this varies from pup to pup, so we'll leave that alone for a sec as well.
 
Finally:  pickup placement, relative to the vibrating string.  This may actually have the greatest impact on an instrument's tone, beyond its mechanical construction.  A pickup is only looking at a small section of the string, and so only a particular subset of the overtone sequence being generated by the instrument.  That subset represents a collection of energy resources that differ in frequency, amplitude and phase.  It's the phase/amplitude relationship that's of concern here.  Basically, the pickup's aperature and placement act as elements of a mechanical filter that rejects any part of the string's harmonic structure that it can't see.  So the phase and amplitude of the individual harmonics create sum-and-difference resonances that ultimately result in a comb-filter.
 
Looking at our G24 note at 392 Hz, with a pair of pickups each with a 1 inch aperature, sitting 3.75 and 7.5 from the bridge, respectively.  Both pickups are at full volume.  The resulting response curve shows a +6db peak at about 1.1KHz, followed by a fairly sharp notch (-60db) an octave higher at about 2.2KHz.  So, just in the pickup aperature and location, there's already a 60db/octave rolloff about 2/5 octaves above the fundamental!  Of course, as a notch, there's energy above that node point as well.  The next peak occurs at about 3.3KHz, which sits about -9db from the fundamental.  There's another -60db notch at about 3.85KHz, followed by another -9db peak at about 4.4KHz.  Finally, there's another peak at just about 6KHz that's of equal amplitude to the fundamental.
 
The general effect is to create a response hole between 2.2KHz and 4.4KHz, where there's very little support for whatever string information is actually there, and which creates an upper hinge point of about 6.6KHz, after which the peaks within the comb filter roll off at about 6db.
 
So, _mechanically_, this instrument shows a 6db/octave rolloff low-pass response with a 6.6KHz pole, when reproducing a 392Hz fundamental.  Again, this is _before_ adding in the pickup's electrical characteristics; this is purely the pup's location and aperature.
 
Let's look at the other end of the spectrum: an open E string at 41Hz.  Same pickup setup as above.  The resonant peak hits at about 125Hz; first comb notch hits at about 250Hz; etc.  The mechanical filter here has its low-pass hinge at about 2KHz, again with a 6db/octave rolloff.
 
So, mechanically, the instrument displays a self-variable low-pass response, with the filter opening as the fundamental note increases in pitch.
 
NOW, add in the pickup's electrical response.  A pickup will generally have a resonant frequency, above which it naturally rolls off.  A classic passive Fender pickup will have a resonance (when installed and loaded with volume and tone pots and used with a cable) of about 2.5KHz (give or take .5KHz), above which it'll roll off at about 6db/octave.  
 
A low-impedence active pickup, such as Alembic builds, will have a resonant peak somewhere between 4KHz and about 7.5KHz, depending on how low-Z is really is, and how much gain the designers are making up in the preamps.  (Again, we're leaving out any preamp filtering, so far, and are merely looking at the total harmonic energy available in the system.)
 
Putting all the above stuff together:  
 
The string rolls off at 6db/octave from the fundamental.
 
The instrument rolls off at 6db/octave from the pickup's position/aperature low-pass hinge point.
 
The pickup rolls off at 6db/octave from its resonant peak.
 
So, let's take a bass, playing an open G string (roughly 100Hz).  Low-Z pups with aperature and location specs as described above, and a 5KHz resonant peak.  What do we have?
 
The string rolls off at 6db/octave above 100Hz.
 
The instrument rolls off at 6db/octave above 3KHz.
 
The pickup rolls off at 6db/octave above 5KHz.
 
That gives us an aggregate signal of (-36 plus -6 plus -3) equals -45db down at 6KHz.  Go up another octave and you're down -63db at 12KHz.
 
That's a real long way down, for the next to last octave, let alone trying to squeeze 20KHz out of the system.  That's all there is.  To get anything else out of the system, (i.e., to get back to the raw string's response) you'd need to provide boost to offset the instrument's mechanical rolloff and the pickup's electrical rolloff, or about 9db at 6KHz (remember that number, btw.) and about 21db at 12KHz.
 
That'd take roughly a four-pole 15KHz high-pass filter.  Take half a second and think about what else would be getting amplified by 21db or more, and then remember how much effort RonW has put into keeping noise and radio frequency interference OUT of Alembic's instruments...
 
So, let's add in Alembic's active filters.  Rather than trying to boost the last two octaves, where there's very little information to begin with, and which will give us at least +21db of noise gain, let's see what we can do to at least try to recover some of that string response that's being eaten by the electro-mechanical structure of the bass itself.
 
Remember that 9db number I mentioned above?  It's not a coincidence that Q-switch's maximum gain provides a 9db peak at 6KHz.  Or that the filter sweep tracks right through the sweet spot where that aperature/phase cancellation comb filter hole is.  The goal is to recover the raw string information that disappears into the first few notches in the comb filter (and to boost those first few peaks that are -9db down from the fundamental), and to extend the instrument's electromechanical response up to where the strings themselves finally start to give up at 6KHz.
 
Trying to push the filter by increasing the sweep range from 6KHz up to, say, 12KHz, would require a Q-switch with 21db of gain, followed by a six-pole low-pass filter, simply to push the amplified noise and RF back down by 36db or more.  And the easiest way to create a six-pole filter is to use an elliptical filter, which happens to be exactly what the comb filter is, in the first place.  Remmeber that the comb filter has peaks and valleys spaced all along the overtone chain from the fundamental signal.  Put two of them in a circuit, and you'll get places where the peaks coincide.  The technical term for that phenomenon is oscillator.
 
So, let's not go that way, and see what we can do to tame some of the peak-and-valley chaos that's already built into the mechanical comb filter.  How about we simply squash is into oblivion?  What do we lose?
 
We lose the upper two octaves of a string that're already down -24db from the highest fundamental the bass will produce, and we lose any circuit noise generated in the pickups themselves or by the first preamp stages.
 
We gain a measure of immunity from RF interference in the preamps, but more importantly, we gain that really neat 9db boost that exactly offsets the electromecanical filtering effect of the bass, AND, we get user-controllable support for the more significant nasties from the first few nodes of the electromecanical comb filter.
 
So, we trade a hatfull of major headaches that occur above 6KHz for an instrument that gives you as close to a 100% accurate picture of what the string is actually doing as you're ever going to get with magnetic pickups.
 
(For a look at the electromechanical comb filter in action, take a look at this really cool demonstration page by J. Donald Tillman.  Also, take a run over to for a nice table of the Frequency of Musical Notes, from MichiganTech's Physics department.)
 
Sorry to be so long-winded, but there's a huge amount of background to cover whenever you start trying to back-engineer Ron Wickersham.  :-)
 
nic

David Houck

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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2005, 08:56:46 PM »
Very nice Nic!!  I enjoyed reading this!  Tillman's applet is pretty neat too!

dnburgess

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« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2005, 01:52:21 AM »
Nic - great post - just the kind of thing to find a home in the forthcoming Alembic wiki - or should that be Alembiki.

alanbass1

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« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2005, 02:43:28 AM »
Should have heeded the warning, my head is spinning

jlpicard

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« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2005, 12:41:04 PM »
Nic, Everyone should take the time to digest this info. After reading this post, the logic is inescapable as to why the filters are designed in this manner. I seriously doubt that there are many other manufacturers of basses out there that have given this much consideration to the design of their pickups and related electronics, etc. If there are, it is because once again, Alembic has pushed the envelope, and many manufacturers have jumped on the bandwagon over the years with one feature or another taking credit for themselves.

sfnic

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« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2005, 05:17:11 PM »
Sorry 'bout that, Alan.  
 
Michael -  In all fairness to (some) other manufacturers, there are quite a few people who have been researching the science of string vibration and nodal phase incident responses and so forth, for many years.  But in a large way, you're absolutely right.
 
Ron Wickersham learned and developed a lot of the underlying theory as part of his work in magnetics: remember that his pre-Alembic work at Ampex involved inventing, designing and debugging analog and video tape transport systems, and the multi-track recording heads and amplification systems used there.  Aligning a 16-track head stack (especially when you're holding the first one ever built in your hands) takes a certain awareness of phase relationships and, especially relevant to our filter design example here, the effect of Cauer elliptical (comb) filtering on the audio spectrum.
 
Before Ron's work at Ampex, _nobody_ had any idea of what effects such filtering might have on audio, or how any negative impacts might be overcome.  Audio printed on mag tape suffers from many of the same problems that audio printed to ears of a listener suffer from, and many of the fixes are similar.
 
Going from filtering the tape output to filtering an instrument's output isn't that far a leap, but ONLY if you've done both.  In 1970, the number of people who had that experience were very, very few.
 
Now, all that said, there was still a huge amount of research to be done in the various fields involved.  It took Ron a tiny bit to get up to speed on the physics of string vibration and the properties of wood, but he had solid analogues in his magnetic and solid state electronics work, and he had the perfect research facility and colleagues available.  But the contribution to the core theories made by people like Rick Turner, Frank Fuller, George Mundy, Jim Furman and many others cannot be overstated.  The early definitions of filter breakpoints all came out of that original research, which was the first lab that ever considered both the electrical _and_ botanical _and_ mechanical issues in an inter-disciplined format.  Every electric instrument designed up to that point had been simply tuned by ear to meet the designer's goal.
 
Soon after, there were other people expanding on the research.  Some passed through Alembic and many others were inspired by the possibilities.  In many cases, individual breakthroughs came in specific areas of interest:  Jim Furman expanded the original parametric filter into a complete product line (which in turn inspired Alembic's brilliantly integrated FX-1 preamp system).  Jim's work spawned dozens of imitators, and even forced older, established players (Orban Parasound; Klarke Technik; White Instruments) to change direction.  
 
Bill Bartolini, Seymour Duncan and Larry DiMarzio all focused on making after-market and OEM pickups that would at least enlarge the range of options for players.  Richard Schneider and Dr. Kasha did some outstanding work in desciphering the intracacies of string and plate vibration modalities.  
 
David Tarnowski (Analog/Digital Associates) combined Furman's filtering ideas with his innovative delta-modulation for inexpensively digitizing audio, and came up with the first viable digital delays, which were then expanded on by Lexicon and Roland and others.  
 
Luthiers like Ken Smith, Michael Tobias and others built on Alembic's early work and have defined pretty much the entire tone library we all use today in selecting recipies.  Geoff Gould brought the first graphite neck concepts to Alembic, which opened the door for Ned Steinberger, Charlie Kamen and others to introduce composite materials into lutherie.  (And we're only now really seeing the fruits of their original labor, in terms of graphite-reinforced necks, composite braces, hybrid laminated tops, etc.)  And, to come full circle, a lot of the work with composites have allowed people like Rick Turner to completely challenge the classical notions of structural support within an instrument through the use of flying buttress bracing and lateral thrust members, which lets him expand on Frank Fuller's old work on plate vibrational nodes I mentioned above, to make some awesome-sounding acoustic instruments.
 
There's been so much innovation in the past 35 years or so (not to mention the stuff done during the twenty or so years _before_ Alembic, by Leo, Christian, Orville, Seth and the other giants), that there's plenty of credit to go around.  
 
Would these things have been invented if Alembic hadn't been there to convince Jack and Phil and Dave that there might be a better sound lurking in those instruments?  Probably.  There were far too many people all thinking about the same things, right around that time or shortly thereafter.
 
But there's no denying that there's a direct causal chain.  Mike Doolin, for instance, makes some incredible acoustic guitars up in the northwest.  But he'll be the first one to tell you he's built on Schneider and Kasha's work, and more importantly, that he's filtered _their_ research with what he's learned from Frank Fuller.
 
Michael Tobias and Roger Sadowsky make great basses; but they didn't come into their own as a bass builders until they had hooked up with Alembic and the Alembic alumni at Stars Guitars.  And any given month in Bass Player magazine will have a showcase builder who's designs or wood selections or electronic inspiration comes directly from the Alembic school.
 
Bill Bartolini would have been totally content building overwound humbuckers for Les Pauls, until he got his hands on an Alembic low-z setup.  And EMG owes their entire existance to Bill's ability to make low-cost pickups and preamps that emulated Alembic's functionality, if not their consistancy or overwhelming quality (you have to cut some corners when you're trying to sell to the mass market).
 
I've been exceptionally privileged to have worked with and for many of the above-mentioned people and companies.  So I've actually ridden the wave of technological innovation that spread out from the old Brady St. digs and the Cotati farmhouse.  That it's taken me 35 years to _catch up_ to what The Wizard and his team were doing way back then is a testament not so much to my own slowness in absorbing information, but rather in how freaking MUCH information was generated in those early years, and how much more has been generated since.
 
It's an age of wonders, kids, and we're only in the infancy of What May Be.  Who knows, maybe a 40th anniversary re-issue of Jack's #1, using Series III electronics?  Or maybe jump directly to level 10 with a completely digital bass, along with its perfectly matched WiFi, DSP and amplification systems?
 
We'll see...
 
(Message edited by sf-nic on June 27, 2005)