Author Topic: Care & Feeding of Alembics  (Read 897 times)

dfung60

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 637
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2005, 01:30:39 PM »
There always seems to be a lot of confusion about fingerboard care.  The fingerboard is the only place on the instrument where you might have exposure of bare wood for most people, but even then, it's usually not totally bare.
 
There's a bunch of different levels of things that you can do to the wood to protect it.  At the extreme end, you can finish the fingerboard with varnish which protects it completely, but that's usually undesirable because string contact can wear through the varnish or make it look bad along the way.  I don't think it's as big a deal with basses, but with guitars, your fingertip will come in contact with the fretboard surface and a varnished finish may have more grab on your hands.
 
The next level is a penetrating oil finish like tung oil or linseed oil.  These oils penetrate the wood surface and polymerize making the surface harder and more humidity resistant without the grab of varnish.  This sort of a finish is wipe-on but takes a couple of days to get to full strength.  I don't know whether Alembic is doing this at the factory, but I would assume so.  This actually makes for a pretty tough finish when properly done and good protection for the fingerboard.  Ebony and rosewood are usually used for unvarnished fingerboards since they are dense and have high natural oil content to start with so they can withstand the abrasion of the strings better.  You could do this sort oil treatment too, but it takes some time for each coat to set, so you're talking about days before it's usable.
 
It won't last all that long, but you can get a lot of protection from moisture with a wax finish.  A quality woodworking wax with carnauba will protect the fingerboard from dirt and moisture.
 
When you're using something like pure lemon oil, I think this is mostly a cleaning effect.  It won't harden the surface of the wood like tung oil, but it does help dissolve some of the dirt off the fingerboard and frets.  I kind of doubt that much of it will soak in, but I guess some will.
 
I think the best thing that you could do is to make sure you keep the fingerboard clean.  The dirt and oil from your hands won't clean off easily with water as oils are hydrophobic.  But there are woodworking soaps that work well to remove all this gunk, usually petroleum distillates or plant extracts.  I think if you followed that up with a good wax finish, you'd probably be doing better than heavy surface oil treatments.  I use some German stuff called Livros Gleivo Wax, which is a plant-based wax/cleaner.  That doesn't mean it doesn't smell chemical-ly because it does (fruit oils, they say, but it as strong as smell as turpentine), but it does a good job cleaning gunk off the fingerboard.  This is a beeswax product which is a soft wax rather than a hard one like carnauba, so it's a little grippy.  A pure carnauba wax like Harley Wax (an automotive wax) makes for a very hard, fast surface.  A good cleaning and a hard wax finish shouldn't have any negative effect on the inlays.
 
Finally, I'd really avoid stuff like Finger Ease.  Many of these string cleaners have silicone in them, as do many automotive waxes.  Silicone waxes are really easy to apply and very tough, but they're almost impossible to remove from the wood should you have to do refinishing later.  GHS says Fast Fret is non-silicone, so it must not be, but it does make me wonder about the possible residue - if you think about it, if it's really just cleaning the strings, then they'll probably be *more* grabby afterwards rather than less so.  Whatever it's leaving on your strings is also on your fingerboard.

57basstra

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1065
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2005, 01:51:38 PM »
This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks guys. I have no advice to offer, but look forward to reading more.

pmoran

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 173
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2005, 04:20:47 PM »
i ask alot of stupid questions on this site.  many times i end up digressing and saying something that demonstrates my relative ignorance about alembics because i've only owned them for a year.  i've known about them for 30 years but couldn't afford them until the last 10 years or so, but i'd never played one and was afraid of the investment. ebay brought me into the alembic world, which i know sounds like heresy, but when i discovered ebay and that alembics were there and reasonable, a new world opened for me.  to be a member of the alembic forum is like my college fraternity days---but not w/the shallowness of youth then present.  you guys tend to be older, mature, serious bass owners/players----and you all seem to be willing to guide a 51 year old novice thru the learning process. i appreciate that.  further, you all seem to be really nice people. so, it's like a fraternity of kind, gentle, extremely intelligent and knowledgeable folk. i didn't know there was such a thing.  this thread has provided me w/a wealth of knowledge.  i used the info mica provided to generate a belief the wood needed nourishment.  i believe i now understand w/proper and regular cleaning and treatment w/good waxes, i'll never need lemon oil on this fretboard, since it's young and in pristine shape. so, i'm no longer worried about the effects of lemon oil on my dot inlays, which was the original thread.  i now have a much broader understanding of proper care and cleaning, versus feeding, of my fingerboard.  i bought a bass care kit in 1972, in austin, called the tres hombres care kit and it had 3 bottles of solutions.  one was pure organic lemon oil for cleaning.  another was carnauba wax for polishing and finishing.  the third bottle? can't remember. however, thanks to the thread taking it's course, i'm now reminded of the value of carnauba and how wonderful it is on guitars.  my '87 gibson rd artist is still in absolutely pristine shape, despite being played an average of 4 hours a week since '87 thanks to that kit. well, until about 5 years ago when the plastic bottles containing the 3 solutions began to degrade and pucker to the point i threw the kit out. carnauba here i come. thank you all for an extremely educational experience and for sharing your considerable knowledge w/me and others. your time is appreciated!

s_wood

  • club
  • Advanced Member
  • *
  • Posts: 439
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2005, 04:31:08 PM »
Somewhere up towards the middle of the thread someone mentioned that lemon oil will kill your strings.  That's true, but it's also true of any decent fingerboard oil.  I think I've tried everything from dishwater to polio vacine on my fingerboards, and I have found that all fingerboard oils will kill one's strings.
 
So here's what I do: I only oil my fingerboards when it's time to change strings. Then, I loosen the strings completely and oil the board without removing them.  I wait 20 minutes and wipe the excess oil off the board.  I then bring the strings back to pitch.  I wait a day, then play my bass for an hour or 2 with the old and very dead strings on, making sure to play every string at each fret.  Only then will I put new strings on the bass.
 
BTW, I am a big fan of Stewart=McDonald Fingerboard oil, in part because it dries to a hard finish pretty quickly.

57basstra

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1065
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2005, 08:10:00 PM »
Steve, Where do you get good polio vaccine these days?

jetbass79

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 116
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2005, 10:10:58 PM »
Well if it's true that lemon oil kills strings then there's no reason anyone on the planet should be using flatwounds. But since people still use flatwounds for the less bright sound, I'm not buying the strings go dead argument.  
 
I've been doing the same lemon oil thing (and brasso to polish frets) for more than 10 years and I have never noticed strings to just go dead.  Then again, I don't bathe the fretboard in lemon oil, and I have never had a fretboard crack on me either from not enough moisture.

yggdrasil

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 172
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2005, 04:14:38 AM »
Frank; did it soak into the fretboard normally, or did it take longer and was there more residue to wipe off?
 
Dave- no more residue than normal, and no noticeable difference in soak-in :-)
 
The bass is a 2001; I think it had the original strings on it and I doubt it had been oiled at all.
 
I never had a coco bolo board before - thought maybe it had something to do with that.
 
Now it's fine; it was short term phenomenon.
 
Frank

lbpesq

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10683
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2005, 08:55:52 AM »
David:
 
I am a little intrigued by your statement that lemon oil only cleans and doesn't really soak into the wood and replace the lost polymers.  My recollection from previous discussions is that the reason Alembic recommends lemon oil is that it is best at soaking in and replacing the lost polymers.  (Where do the lost polymers go?  Is there an island of lost polymers out there somewhere, maybe next to the island of lost socks?)  Now you explain that lemon oil doesn't do this job.  So, does lemon oil soak into the fretboard or not?  Do I even need to apply a soaking in oil?  Now I'm more confused.
 
Mica, Val, Susan, someone  ....HELP!!!!  
 
Bill, tgo

Bradley Young

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1486
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2005, 09:29:03 AM »
When I applied lemon oil last night, it definitely soaked in.  I have a wenge fingerboard.
 
Of course (shame on me), I haven't ever oiled it before.  I didn't know about it until about a year ago.
 
Brad

mpisanek

  • Guest
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2005, 01:11:53 AM »
My fretboard treatment routine involves an bi-annual (or so) treatment with tung oil and occasional cleaning with lemon oil.  Both appear to soak in, and both appear to help the fretbaord maintain its proper condition.
 
My upright is a Mosesgraphite KP6 and all I have to use is a damp cloth!  No shrinkage either!  
 
Regards,
 
Michael.

dfung60

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 637
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2005, 12:34:26 PM »
lbpesq -
 
Polymerization is when molecules that are short in size organize to form long chains of molecules.  This is how plastics are made - relatively short petroleum molecules which would normally be volatile (like solvents or gas which evaporate rapidly to fuel oils that leave a sticky mess for a long time) are chemically combined to make macromolecules that have very different properties like increased strength or water resistance.
 
Any oil will penetrate into the wood when you put it on, but most of them don't harden very much.  Something like tung oil will polymerize by itself when the solvent it's dissolved in evaporates.  For whatever depth it penetrates into the wood (I think we're talking just 1/32 or so) the wood surface will be *really* hard - more resistant to scratches and passing less moisture through as well.  I believe linseed oil also does this, although it needs to be boiled (and probably some other processing) for it to harden.
 
If you use something like lemon oil (as discussed before, we're not talking about lemon juice or lemon-scented liquid furniture polish), it will soak into the wood and that oiled surface will cut down on moisture coming in or out of the neck wood.  But I don't think it will harden into a protective coating at the level like tung oil.  And the amount of humidity protection will probably be less than a good coat of wax.
 
If you expose your neck to hot, dry conditions you really will cause the moisture in the wood to migrate out.  If you're unlucky, that will cause the wood in the fingerboard to separate along the grain lines and you'll get a split.  So an oil finish, or a coat of wax, or even dousing the neck in a non-polymerizing oil will probably help to some extent.  But you really need to avoid the dehydrating conditions (as they say, if it would be uncomfortable for you, it will be uncomfortable for your bass too).
 
On a $300 guitar, you may have cracking problems because the neck woods were not fully seasoned, which means that they had too much moisture in them when the neck was built.  When the moisture migrates, the fingerboard may split.  That's probably not a problem on your Alembic since the shop really knows what it's doing, but Alembic does build with a lot of exotic woods which can be more sensitive (ebony, cocabola, and burled woods, for instance).  
 
For most people who's instruments don't have harsh environmental conditions, I think that dirt and dust collecting on the fingerboard is a much bigger threat.  Your hands have oil and perspiration on them.  The oils you leave on the fingerboard and frets attract dust and the dust is quite abrasive on the fingerboard and frets.  So keeping them clean should be a priority (even if it's sort of gross and not much fun).  Something like lemon oil is a good cleaner for this goop.  
 
The oils from your hands are what a chemist would call polar.  THat's why it's hard to clean oily things with just water, which is non-polar.  You can clean them off more easily with a non-polar solvent, and lemon oil is one example of a gentle one.  You could also use a stronger solvent like naptha, but a stronger solvent will also attack that polymerized oil finish on your fingerboard, so you're well served by using the weakest solvent that will do the job.  And I think lemon oil (or the smelly solvent in my German wax) does a pretty good job of that.  And, just like your car, having a good coat of wax there probably wouldn't hurt either.
 
Finally(!), you asked about where all those lost polymers were going.  After this long post, you've probably figured out the answer already (if you didn't fall asleep along the way).  Mostly what's coming and going is the humidity/moisture/water in the fingerboard which you'd like to keep stable.  There's (probably, but I'll wait to hear what Alembic says about whether they give a finishing oil coating to the fingerboard during construction) a very thin polymerized oil finish protecting the surface of the fingerboard which you are wearing away as you play in areas where your strings and fingers are touching the wood.  
 
That last part is kind of important, since you can think of your finished fingerboard sort of like a balloon.  You only need to puncture the protective surface in one place for what's inside to start leaking out.  Now, the wood finish is an intentionally leaky membrane so this isn't like a balloon popping and there's already a lot of holes in it like the fret slots.  But if you have a lot of fingerboard wear (more likely on guitar than bass) then you're really much more exposed and really could benefit from wax if not refinishing.
 
Of course, I welcome comment and correction from any and all, especially the Alembic folks.
 
David Fung

57basstra

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1065
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2005, 01:49:43 PM »
Wow.

bob

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 808
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2005, 02:06:36 PM »
David - Mica's quote in the FAQ referenced by Dave above is quite clear, that Our standard figerboard is unfinished, and I'm pretty certain that has come up in a few other places.
 
Just plain sanded ebony (as standard), which is why they encourage you to feed it something.

pmoran

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 173
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2005, 03:26:46 PM »
why do i actually seem to understand this now?

dfung60

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 637
Care & Feeding of Alembics
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2005, 07:15:10 AM »
bob -
 
Thanks for the reference.  I stand corrected on how the instruments are constructed out of the factory!  I do believe I'm accurate with regard to what's going on with finishes and wood though, so it's something to think about.
 
I've done fingerboard refinishing in tung oil of fretless basses in the past.  I would agree that the finished surface feels tacky during the process, but in my case, didn't end up that way.  I started by sanding the fretboard level and making sure it's really clean, then followed up by wiping on tung oil.  It has to sit for days between coats (at least 3 days, I have only enough patience for no more than 3 coast) and you rub with plastic steel wool between coats after they harden, relatively coarse between coats, and fine at the end.  Finally wax on top of that.  
 
I haven't tried this on a fretted bass.  It wouldn't be that much harder, but you'd have to spend a lot of time cleaning up around the fret edges, so perhaps this is better as part of a refret.
 
David Fung