Author Topic: Set neck vs through neck?  (Read 1177 times)

bracheen

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2004, 05:12:01 AM »
Adriaan, have you heard Jack Bruce's upright work on his Things We Like cd?  Good Stuff.
 
Sam

adriaan

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2004, 05:28:35 AM »
Sam, no, never heard anything by Jack besides the obvious Cream stuff (Sunshine, that sort of thing). He seems have a reputation for playing out of tune on fretless, perhaps not deservedly, but still. I'm more of a Mingus fan anyway.

effclef

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2004, 05:42:37 AM »
Bob and Adriaan - you can get more of a muted tone by fretting on top of the frets. With that in mind, hmm - how about covering the frets with rubber? A thick elastic band around each one, perhaps? That will dampen the strings quite a bit.  
 
Or, thread the strings (where they will touch the fretboard) thru some rubber tubing of appropriate diameters.  
 
I would be cautious about materials for the sustain block. Just make sure it's not going to fracture and send 100 pounds of string tension at your face.  
 
Check out the Guild (DeArmond, now) ASHBORY bass for upright sound in an electric. The thing is nearly impossible to play - tiny thing, silicone rubber strings, fretless, and with a piezo pickup; but the thing has AMAZING low end. About $300-350 new.  
 
EffClef

effclef

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2004, 06:12:46 AM »
Oh, by the way, a friend of mine has a fretless Fender Jazz bass and I was telling him that one advantage bolt-ons have is that you can swap from fretted to fretless if you want.  
 
Now imagine that concept done on an Alembic. Instead of a bolt-on, imagine the neck being screwed into a metal plate, which then dovetails into a metal socket in the body, with some sort of (safe) quick release screw. With that, plus Alembic's slotted tailpiece, you could swap out the fretted neck for the fretless and just leave the strings on it or swap them at the same time. But you'd have the same electronics, same body, etc.  
 
Crazy idea, but if anyone could make it work, this company could.  
 
EffClef

dean_m

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2004, 10:32:00 AM »
Hey Guys!!!
 
I'm back!!!!  
My set neck Orion has a much more woodier tone than my neck through Elan does.  The wood on my Orion is a mahogany body with a bubinga top.  The Elan has a maple body with a bubinga top.  Granted my Orion is fretless and the Elan is fretted so there is an obvious change in wood tone right there but....
I'm really thinking that I like the Orion better for that type of sound.  
I also have to agree, a bolt on Alembic just doesn't sound right.
BTW- Adriaan, I belive it was Paul Chambers on the Kind of Blue recordings.
 
Peace,
 
Dino
 

bracheen

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2004, 10:40:20 AM »
Hey Dino welcome home!  How was LA?
 
Sam

bob

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2004, 11:13:14 AM »
EffClef - I appreciate your concern for my safety, and in fact I am a little concerned that the lightest block may fracture... however, I find that on my bass the block is mostly under compression. Did I put it back together wrong?

effclef

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2004, 12:13:39 PM »
Bob - I was being stupid! I was thinking sustain block but I was visualizing tailpiece! So yes, the sustain block is under downward pressure and you could probably use what you like for an anti-sustain :-) block.  
 
Hmm, my rubber damper idea - maybe you could try a hunk of rubber hockey puck as the sustain block.
 
EffClef, thinking of interesting but not necessarily practical ideas

dean_m

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2004, 02:06:53 PM »
Thanks Sam!!!!
 
It was warm and sunny.  The Pepperdine Malibu campus is absolutely stunning!!!!  
I'm heading back again this Monday, only this time in Ventura.  I might be out for another week or so.
 
Peace,
Dino

dfung60

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2004, 05:24:49 PM »
I should clarify my comment about bolt-on and set-neck being functionally equivalent.  As opposed to a through-body, both set-neck and bolt-on are different pieces of wood under nut and tailpiece and I think that dominates the tonal effect.  
 
But actually building a set-neck instrument is much, much harder than a bolt-on.  Not only does it require greater precision in the joinery, but you have to design the overall layout of the instrument to accomodate the set-neck as well, in particular, the fact that the body-to-neck angle is fixed, just as a through-body is.  From a practical standpoint, this means special care must be taken so that the bridge height is right.  On a bolt-on, if a particular bridge is too tall or too short, you can shim the neck to change the neck angle.  With set-neck or through-body, you have to elevate or inlay the bridge into the body.
 
The big difference between set-neck and bolt-on is that the bolt-on will be more likely to require a heel that might interfere with access to the higher frets.  Many clever designs try to work around this, but it's pretty hard to design a functional bolt-on that yields clear access to the 24th fret like a through-body Alembic.  The set-neck will give the designer a lot more flexibility to shape the heel and can conceivably offer more access up there.  For some people that matters, for most, I would guess it's not a big deal.
 
You certainly can build premium bolt-on basses.  MTD is the obvious example.  It's pretty terrifying to consider a $4000 bolt-on bass, but Mike Tobias didn't pick that design so he could crank out basses!  There aren't very many set-neck basses - a lot of Gibsons over the years and Zon come to mind, and I have one of the original PRS basses that is set neck as well.
 
I think that the Bass Player-type mags seem to have really overemphasized the neck pocket and neck joint tightness in their instrument reviews these days.  Aligning the bolt pattern and neck properly are critical, but in my mind, there's nothing wrong if there's a small gap between the pieces or a shim in the pocket.  Tighten those 3, 4, 5, or 6 screws and the joint will be appropriately tight.  
 
I also think that a less rigid sustain block alternative would be a very interesting experiment.  I tried chopping up some polyurethane skateboard wheels which I think would be a very interesting material, but was unable to make anything stable enough to play.  I think this would have needed to be done by casting a polyurethane block with the appropriate threaded inserts in it.  An easier experiment would probably be having a like-sized block cut from some other material (aluminum?) although this probably wouldn't be as interesting as a more elastic material.

adriaan

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2004, 03:03:26 AM »
Dino, thanks for identifying Paul Chambers. Perhaps an owner of an Alembic with the ebony neck laminates knows how the bass sounds on Kind of Blue (digitally remastered) and can comment if those laminates can make the tone as big as THAT.
Perhaps the lucky owner of last month's FC, the 6 string Epic set-neck with ebony neck laminates, could care to comment?
 
I get the impression that some of the brothers perhaps do not appreciate quite how good a double bass can sound. Sure, the sustain is not as good as on an Alembic, but then it was designed to be played with a bow - try and get that kind of sustain out of an Alembic (unless you have one of those Gizmo or EBow contraptions - anyone here?).

palembic

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2004, 03:35:46 AM »
Brother Adriaan,
 
the CD Kind of Blue is playing right on this moment when I'm typing this. It is on my Powerbook I-tunes and in th eoffice I Listen to it whit small headphones when I need some momets apart to create textes.
 
I REALLY LOVE the upright.
Because this club is 90% about dreaming I'm glad to admit that buying an upright is a dream of me ...once ...ever ....eventually ... . I learned upright for about 3 years. Not enough to be good but ...well ...you know ... I'm good in 1-5  1-5 1-5 1-5 ...LOL
 
Paul the bad one
 
 
PS : swinging ...

dadabass2001

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2004, 04:58:21 AM »
Kind of Blue is a regular selection on my CD player as well. A keyboard playing friend surprised me one night at an open mic by launching into So What, and I've been hooked on Miles ever since. That sextet truly epitomizes COOL!
 
Mike
"The Secret of Life is enjoying the passage of Time"
 - James Taylor

adriaan

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2004, 05:38:48 AM »
As far as the dreaming goes, I guess mine is a fretless Alembic that sounds as big as Paul Chambers' double bass on Kind of Blue, but with the longer sustain you expect from an Alembic.
 
You can probably get an fx processor to fake that sound, but it will never come out 'natural'.

palembic

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Set neck vs through neck?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2004, 06:09:38 AM »
Broter Adriaan,
 
If I were you I would contact Brother Bob (Novy) about your dream. I think he has some news for you!!!
 
Paul the bad one