Getting the best sound from your bass through PA

[jazzyvee]

I did a gig last night and had my SC and Mesa rig set up on stage. Due to the acoustics of the venue, (read terrible). We all had to have our back line down really low to avoid stage spill out into the venue.
 
This meant I couldn't get a decent volume on stage nor did I have a decent monitor mix.
 
However I had a good sound from the cab just that it was pretty low in volume.
 
I've listened back to the recording of the gig and having a chat with another bass player friend who was at the gig. He said my sound was too thin and not bassy enough.
 
On stage the sound from my cab was quite bassy and I felt at some songs I had to roll a bit off.
 
Anyway my question is what is the best way to
D-I the bass. is it  
a) plug bass into DI then take the link through
the DI box to the amp input.
 
b) Out of the back of my amp's D-I XLR connection. Not sure if it's pre or post pre-amp on my Mesa walkabout.
 
or  
as the sound man did did yesterday,
c) out of the amp's DI- connection and into another DI Box then into the loom to the desk.
 
I did question him about this option and he looked at me like I'd sworn at him.
 
Some advice would be welcome as I do want to feel confident that the sound I get on stage is getting through to the audience.
 

[dadabass2001]

Hi Jazzy,
 Just my two pennies worth, but I can't see a reason to run out of one DI and into another unless your signal was too hot and the soundman was padding it with the second, or he might have been lifting the ground. I usually use the DI directly on the back of my Ampeg B-2R (it has a pre/post EQ switch and a switchable 12 db pad). The Ampeg DI is a balanced XLR out. I do room correction with my amps EQ and set my playing tone on my basses, and I ask the soundman to run flat response. That way I'm responible for any boom in the room (OOOH - poetic!)
 
I record almost every show with a minidisc and stereo mic about 15-20 feet into the club, and the sound is usually what I remember hearing on stage.
Mike

[kol]

Hello Jazzy!
Kolbj?rn from Norway speaking.
Funny,but I too did a gig today with my Rogue through a Mesa Walkabout.I used the Di output of the amp and into the mixer.A good thing with the WalkAbout is that you  can adjust the level of the DI output.The reslult was very good.I used a MB 115 cab in adittion to the wa 112.In contrast to you I had a superb soundman who really worked hard to please us on stage.When we have a good sound then we are happy and play better and have more fun.That is what it is all about.To PLAY!!!!
Good luck next time,Kolbj?rn

[kol]

Hi again!
I forgot to tell you that a set the DI output knob at 8 o\clock position.Very low,so to speak.
May be you had it too high and that was the reason why the soundman wanted an extra DI?
So long!
Kol

[811952]

Ultimately it comes down to what your FOH Engineer likes to hear.  You can send him/her all the lows you want, but if it doesn't sound *good* to him/her, then it's going to get eq'd out.  Same for highs or mids or whatever your favorite frequency.  For practical purposes, it seems a lot of bottom gets removed from the bass and allotted to the bass drum instead for clarity's sake in live music.  I don't really like it, but then I'm not the Sound person.  I suppose I'm thankful that there is live music at all sometimes...
 
John

[jazzyvee]

Thanks for the advice Kol, the sound man set the DI-output knob at 12:00 position himself....  
 
maybe next time i will not show the engineer where the di output knob is and set it at 8 o' clock myself.  
 

[cntrabssn]

Jazzy,
 
Here's another guess...
 
Maybe your engineer didn't have an XLR connection back to the board, and attempted to use a passive direct box to convert the amp's XLR output to 1/4. The problems with this are:
- The 1/4 output would most likely be unbalanced, and more succeptable to external interference on the way to the board.
- The 1/4 output would have a higher impedance (passive DI run in reverse), which isn't going to drive a long line very well. Combined with the input impedance at the board, this could account for the thin sound.  
 
I always try to send the engineer a signal that is taken prior to the amp's EQ. I've run into engineers that refuse to take an amp's direct output if it isn't pre-EQ. It basically comes down to what John said earlier, and I want to make things as easy on the engineer as possible. If I'm using my F1-X or Iamp, I use their balanced outputs pre-EQ. Otherwise, I'll use a direct box between the bass and the amp. I carry my own direct box(es) as well, so if the engineer's direct box looks flaky I'll request that he use mine. This works best for me since I don't work consistently with any particular sound engineer.
 
Hope this helps,
- nate.
 
 

[hasse]

Arrogence is often a cover for incompetence. From what you are writing it looks like your main problem lies in human resourcesrs.
Sorry I know this is a judgemental statement. But I have just met one too many ?sound enginere? who thinks he knows how my bass should sound without even knowing what style of music the band is playing. They usualy like to boost hi and lo and cut mid (think ?80 slap bass( I do not slap at all)) and now they are in trouble because they have boosted all the cliks and fret noice as vel. They start complaining about the sound of my bass beeing too transient or dynamic and they start using a crompressor. The sound just gets worse.
I went out and bought a suitable mic that I always bring along. The guy usualy starts by telling me that this is a verry bad idea. I just tell the guy that the sound from my speaker is the way it is supposed to sound. When the guy gets behind the mixer he usualy stops complaining. Sound tjeck on the bass usualy takes 15 sec. If adjustment is indeed needet I will make them on my rig. This way I am in controle of my sound.
My rig is a part of my instrument. To use a DI-box is to me like cutting it in halfs. And it leaves me without controle of my sound
 
Sorry what was the question?
 
Best regards Hasse
 
PS. I am usualy not this blunt. But this is a emotional topic for all of us.

[keavin]

Alembics sound best going direct (to me),purity & presence is what you get, and the house feels you! what more can you ask for!

[dean_m]

Hey Jazzy,
 
Just my two cents worth too.  Most sound engineers will always want a pre-eq signal coming from you.  Sometimes adding one eq on top of another, on top of another just screws up your sound in the long run.  
I've always run into a DI then into my head and if there's enough channels left in the board, come DI out of the back of the head as well or just simply mic the cab.
One reason I like for running the DI from the bass to the board is this:
No matter what happens to your head, whether it blows up (God forbid) or even something as simple as the power cord or power getting cut off, you will still have that live DI going to the board regardless of what happens on the stage.  There will still be bass in the overall mix.
Remember, Murphy's Law is very well spoken with musicians on gigs.
 
Peace,
Dino

[dela217]

This has been a real sore subject for me too.  For a while I worked regularly with a band here in New Orleans and they had their own sound man.  I never got any complaints from him at all.  But, one day he actually noticed that the connector on my bass was an XLR connector and not the usual 1/4 inch plug.  This is because I use the power supply that we use for our Series 1 and 2 basses.  He was then curious and checked out my rig.  I have it set up as power supply-tuner-PA-then my stage amp. So, he is getting the pure signal from the bass. He noticed that I had the direct line plugged into the BASS or MONO channel of the Power Supply.  He immediately started complaining that he was not getting my signal pre EQ!  He started whining that I had too much bottom end, too hot an output, etc, etc....  I could never get him to understand how the power supply worked as many times as I explained it to him.  He kept saying but it has bass written on it!.  What an idiot.  It was difficult working with him after that.  I started dropping out of the mix, my tone suffered, etc..  
 
I am glad I hardly work with them anymore.  
 
Lately I have been playing larger events with larger stages.  I have not been bringing any amp at all.  It is just too much trouble.  I have been playing with a group that has been doing concert openers. www.meghanlinsey.com. It is a country band and we have been doing openers for major country acts.  I find that most of these guys don't even use a backline!  Some of these guys only use an effects pedal board as their amp.  LOTS of attention is paid to the monitor mix on this level.  I love the sound.  The stage is usually whisper quiet and the monitors sound GREAT.
 
(Message edited by dela217 on May 26, 2004)

[effclef]

Michael, that shows that if Alembic ever redoes the silkscreen for the DS-5, it should say NECK and BRIDGE instead of BASS and TREBLE...
 
EffClef

[811952]

I always pack at least a couple of DI choices in my bag.  Usually a passive DI, an active DI and my bass pod has a line out.  I also carry a couple of SM-57s just in case.  While chatting up the sound guy (while connections, etc., are being finalized), I fire up my rig and demonstrate for them the sound I like to hear when I play (which is extremely useful to them) and then offer that I realize they'll have to change many things to make it fit in the overall mix.  The most overlooked tool in the sound engineer's kit is being able to mix with EQ, and I'm not about to pretend to take that away (because I can't).  The single best thing any of us can do to assure we get fair treatment in the sonic realm (assuming we don't get stuck with Dela's idiot sound guy or one of his 30,000 clones) is to openly acknowledge and appreciate that running sound well is part science, part black art and all difficult.  If you make friends with the sound guy, I guarantee you'll sound much more like you want to sound than if you establish a passive or negative relationship.  They are artists as much as we are artists, and generally speaking they REALLY APPRECIATE IT when one of us notices and says something nice.   And it really makes the singer look like an ass when he complains about the monitors for the 27th time...  
 
John

[David Houck]

This is only slightly on point to this thread, but I thought it might go here as a reasonable offshoot rather than start a new thread.
 
I went to see the Derek Trucks Band last night.  I went to a venue where I've seen several other bands including Vital Information and Victor Wooten.  I've never liked the sound at this venue and last night was no exception.  I was sitting in what should be the sweet spot in the room, right behind the tapers.  From what my ears were telling me, I can only imagine that the clip lights were all lit up on the mixing board.  And the bass, it's as if the PA's power amps had zero damping factors and the PA cabs were designed for projection only.  It was not a tight sound.  Around the last song in the first set, the bass tone cleaned up and I could hear what the bass player was doing.  I'm thinking this happened because it was a relatively quiet song and the sound man suddenly noticed there was a bass player.  In the second set the bass tone continued at the better level; but it was lost beneath the other instruments, which were just too loud.  I never heard the bass player again except during his one solo (which was very nice).  The keyboards must have been clipping all the time; and the guitar was just too loud.  The vocal too was sometimes muddy, though loud.  These observations are all typical of the other times I've been to this venue.  Even when Victor Wooten was there, it took a while before the bass was clear.  With Vital Information, I don't think I ever did hear the bass player.  I don't know the makeup of the PA but I imagine the cabs and their placement are a big part of the problem and I would also guess the signals are being overdriven, perhaps because the system is underpowered.  The room itself appears to be a nice room, a converted theater with lots of drapes.
 
I guess the point here is that even in a relatively big name venue, trusting your sound to the house guy isn't always going to produce good results.  Or at least that is my impression.  Of course maybe the sound man just doesn't have a good system to work with.  But I just can't get past the idea that this room certainly looks like a great place to see a band, and probably a great place to play, but that I always end up disappointed.
 
The band, by the way, appeared to have a great show.  The players seemed to be enjoying themselves, and Derek played great.  The near capacity crowd loved Derek, roaring their approval.  I wish I could have heard the bass player, I'm sure he was doing some interesting things.

[811952]

Sounds like his ears are gone.  Most likely from running too much too loudly for too long.  A lot of times if I stick my fingers in my ears then I can hear something like what the sound guy is hearing: not many highs but not much distortion either.  It's sad to think of the numbers of them/us who have lost so much of our hearing..
 
John