And for the history-minded

[cozmik_cowboy]

The Second World War ended 80 years ago today (much to the relief of my grandparents, who had 4 of their 6 sons in combat zones & 1 in boot camp at the time).


Peter

[David Houck]

Thanks, Peter.

[pas]

My Dad was on Okinawa waiting for the invasion of Japan when Truman dropped the bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki that ended the war.  God bless Harry Truman!

[cozmik_cowboy]

My Dad was on Okinawa waiting for the invasion of Japan when Truman dropped the bombs on Hiroshima & Nagasaki that ended the war.  God bless Harry Truman!

Speaking as an historian:  In the '00s documents were declassified (sorry, I was deep in research on something else, so didn't make note of where I saw them - but I did read them) that prove that the invasion of Japan wasn't going to happen - and Truman knew it.
High-ups in the Japanese military had made a back-channels offer to surrender right then if they could keep the Emperor.  The US said "No, he's a deal breaker", dropped 2 bombs, and then accepted the surrender - with Hirohito staying on his throne.
They knew Japan was done and no invasion was needed, but wanted to drop the bombs - not to defeat Japan, which was already beaten, but to tell Stalin "Hey, we've got this, and we're willing to use it!"  (One of my profs said you really couldn't put a start date on the Cold War, that it was a gradual thing; I replied that it started April 12, 1945, and he allowed as how a very strong argument could be made for that.)
The 250K KIAs they said they saved was a number pulled directly from George McKennon's hindquarters as a justification for perhaps the greatest war crime in history.
I'm glad your dad didn't have to invade - but the fact that he didn't had nothing to do with what Truman did to Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Peter

[gtrguy]

There are some good books on this subject. Pictures from Japan from this time period show large numbers of Japanese suicide ships, planes, and devices to be used if an invasion happened, in addition to massive numbers of troops being shifted to the area we were going to invade. The civilian population there was also made to understand that they were to be in the front lines and used against US troops in any way. Also, Russia was just getting ready to invade the northern Japanese islands when the bombs were dropped. If Russia had invaded, the country of Japan would have been carved up like Berlin was.

The emperor of Japan was not the all powerful leader of the country either. A large military faction was not above overthrowing or disposing of him should he try to surrender.

[cozmik_cowboy]

There are some good books on this subject. Pictures from Japan from this time period show large numbers of Japanese suicide ships, planes, and devices to be used if an invasion happened, in addition to massive numbers of troops being shifted to the area we were going to invade. The civilian population there was also made to understand that they were to be in the front lines and used against US troops in any way. Also, Russia was just getting ready to invade the northern Japanese islands when the bombs were dropped. If Russia had invaded, the country of Japan would have been carved up like Berlin was.

The emperor of Japan was not the all powerful leader of the country either. A large military faction was not above overthrowing or disposing of him should he try to surrender.

The Emperor was divine; descended the sun goddess Amaterasu.  No, they would not have deposed him.
Go back & read my post above yours; they had prepared for an invasion, but were beyond being able to resist it.  We could have had their surrender without the Bombs.

Peter

[gtrguy]

I have also personally talked to military personal including close relatives who fought in this war and a B25 bombardier who took part in the fire bombing of Tokyo (more deadly than the atomic bomb). The militarists running Japan were intractable. American soldiers coming back from the ended war in Europe were going to be committed to a prolonged fight in Japan lasting up to 8 years if need be. The loss of life on both sides would have been horrific. 

I also understand how we sold them much of the material for their invasion of China and the creating of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" and then abruptly stopped doing that. Most of the world today is also aware of how our constant internal 'Regime Changes' may put them at risk. I only hope and pray that someday we may all live in peace.

[cozmik_cowboy]

The militarists running Japan were intractable. American soldiers coming back from the ended war in Europe were going to be committed to a prolonged fight in Japan lasting up to 8 years if need be. The loss of life on both sides would have been horrific. 

Again, that was the narrative concocted by the Truman Administration to justify their use of the Bomb - and from 1945 until shortly after 2000, it was the only narrative - until the documents I reference were declassified.   It just wasn't true; the military had offered to surrender, and the much(and rightly)-feared invasion of the home islands was known in the highest levels of the US government to be not happening by very early '45 at the latest.
I accepted the Official Version myself, and considered Hiroshima & Nagasaki to be terrible, but necessary, tragedies.  Until I saw those documents.  (I truly wish I'd made a note of exactly what they were, but as I said, much caught up in other research at the time).  Having seen them, I know that the bombings were not needed, and thus pure war crimes.


Peter

[tkotmk42]

Just watch "Band of Brothers" and "The Pacific".   You will understand why the 2 bombs were dropped, and why all thoese cities were fire bombed.

I hope we all can live in Peace. 

Takeo

[cozmik_cowboy]

Just watch "Band of Brothers" and "The Pacific".   You will understand why the 2 bombs were dropped, and why all thoese cities were fire bombed.

I hope we all can live in Peace. 

Takeo

I have watched Band Of Brothers - several times.  It's excellent, but has nothing to do with the Pacific war.   And I started The Pacific, but it sucked.  And I have read a great deal on the matter, even though it is not one of my primary research interests (I will add that, besides my uncles and a great-uncle, I knew many WWII veterans - including a guy who was in the 101st - not Easy Company - who jumped on D-Day, was at Bastogne , and all that; I do have some interest in the matter).

But I am an historian - I earned a few degrees, have taught it, have won awards for papers; the whole deal - and I have read the documents I mention above.  Those cities were bombed to scare Stalin - period.  It was needed only in the fevered Red-hatred of Truman and his inner circle; perhaps it would have served  it s stated purpose a year or 2 later, but it was completely unnecessary in Aug. '45.


And yes - having felt as you do on the matter for about 50 years, it was hard to get my head around the truth.  But, I held the proof (well, copies thereof) in my hands.  And yes, I do believe the US government (like all governments) is completely capable of lying to its people.


And I, too, hope we can all live in peace - but given the whole of human history, you will understand if I'm not optimistic.  Despite how wonderful some individuals are, humans as a whole are, I fear, scum.

Peter

[bigredbass]

I'm old enough to have lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, the 'duck and cover' drills in 1st and 2nd grade, a child of the Cold War for sure.

I turned 70 this year and have lived all of them essentially 30 minutes away from going out in a Blaze of Glory after the sirens go off.  So like most things that terrified us as children, I've always had a fascination with that Boogey Man of nuclear Holocaust.

Any seriously interested in this (and at four thick volumes, you'd have to be serious or OCD to read them, as well written as they are) needs to read the four books that Richard Rhodes wrote about this era:

The Making of the Atomic Bomb (the discovery of nuclear fission and the Manhattan Project)

Dark Sun (the post Manhattan Project transformation and birth of the AEC and the development of the Hydrogen bomb)

Arsenals of Folly (the Cold War and the START era with Gorbachev and Reagan)

The Twilight of the Bombs (post Reagan, nuclear proliferation and terrorism)

I can recommend any and all of these.

[lbpesq]

I remember the "get under you desk" drills in 2nd grade during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Who knew those old school desks were bomb and radiation proof!

Bill, tgo

[cozmik_cowboy]

I remember the "get under you desk" drills in 2nd grade during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Who knew those old school desks were bomb and radiation proof!

Bill, tgo

And, to quote instructions from the time, "Before entering the shelter, look to see if you have any fallout on you, and brush it off before entering".

Allow me to strongly recommend the comic/horror documentary Atomic Café; a level-headed look at the nonsense we were fed.  No wonder both The Grateful Dead and Crown Of Creation featured mushroom clouds on their covers; we all knew we were going up in smoke any second.  In grad school I wrote a short piece for a class discussion board about the role of impending annihilation on the development of the counterculture; maybe if I remember next time I'm at the other computer I'll see if attachments are working yet.

Second band I sang for in HS, the lead player's family had a large underground bomb shelter; we'd get high & practice there (where they thought the electricity would be coming from after a nuclear war I never got around to asking).

Peter (who still has dreams that end with mushroom clouds on the horizon)

[bigredbass]

Words to live by:

[cozmik_cowboy]

I remember the "get under you desk" drills in 2nd grade during the Cuban Missile Crisis.  Who knew those old school desks were bomb and radiation proof!

Bill, tgo

Yep.
I also remember being pissed no end at John Kennedy for preempting Space Angel to talk about something called "Cuber".

Peter