SN 07MK13747

[JimmyJ]

Oscar,

Yes, the Series II's "Continuously Variable Q" control is simply a pot instead of the Series I's 3-position switch.  The switch version was 0db, +6db, +9db.  I believe your MK switch is +8db so in-between the Series model choices.

The build quality of Alembic gear is off the charts because from the beginning it was designed for professional touring.  Built to be serviceable and to hold up under extreme conditions.  In the almost 50 years I've been playing them I've never run into a serious problem.

Don't judge the truss rods by what you can SEE in the cavity.  They may even be hand-cut to length and they don't need to be exact, so that may vary.  For example, below is a pic of one of my '89 Series IIs.  I don't know how much thread is beneath those nuts but it doesn't matter because the system is working fine.  The only thing that matters is how tight they are.  So get yourself a small open-ended 1/4" wrench and see how they feel. 

Do not fear the truss rods.      

Keep going!
Jimmy J

[Notachemist]

Oscar,

Yes, the Series II's "Continuously Variable Q" control is simply a pot instead of the Series I's 3-position switch.  The switch version was 0db, +6db, +9db.  I believe your MK switch is +8db so in-between the Series model choices.

The build quality of Alembic gear is off the charts because from the beginning it was designed for professional touring.  Built to be serviceable and to hold up under extreme conditions.  In the almost 50 years I've been playing them I've never run into a serious problem.

Don't judge the truss rods by what you can SEE in the cavity.  They may even be hand-cut to length and they don't need to be exact, so that may vary.  For example, below is a pic of one of my '89 Series IIs.  I don't know how much thread is beneath those nuts but it doesn't matter because the system is working fine.  The only thing that matters is how tight they are.  So get yourself a small open-ended 1/4" wrench and see how they feel. 

Do not fear the truss rods.      

Keep going!
Jimmy J

Hey Jimmy

We did it: The truss rod was tightened very, very gently after first loosening it a little bit, and it didn't seem to be a problem in regards to feeling tight, and there was a difference almost immediately. I have been reading that it can take some time for the instrument to settle, so I'll check up on it tomorrow. I know it's better to adjust in small increments, so I'm proceeding very slowly. I was fortunate to have someone with feeler gauges help me out, and the treble and bass side were quite close after the small adjustment, but do they have to be (exactly) the same, or is a very small amount of difference within tolerance? Also thinking in terms of how thick the low B is, compared to the thinner G string, and the ease of sliding a measuring tool underneath it.

As was pointed out to me, the instrument is also 17 years old, so I was told the wood has mostly settled by now, making it even more stable. If it stays well and won't need any immediate adjustments, I will take note of your approach, and tighten them the same on both rods. While playing it I'm not noticing anything wildly out of place (it's still a whole new experience playing an Alembic, so that has to factored in, I guess), and I am trying not to turn it into something to obsess over, in a bad way, if you understand. I was actually thinking of getting a torque wrench, but even those instruments have a variance in accuracy, so I might be overthinking this whole ordeal.

We are making progress!
Oscar

[JimmyJ]

Hey Oscar,

Great!  Glad to hear you've overcome your fears and done some adjusting.  That's why those nuts are there and accessible so don't be afraid. 

How you set up your action is a personal thing so people may have different approaches.  It is all only about how it feels to you when you play.  Set it up to best suit your playing style, it feels comfortable, and you can get what you want out of the instrument.  This is NOT an exact science so when you talk about feeler gauges and torque wrenches you are (in my opinion) getting a little too far into the deep end.    It's just about how YOU like the action to be.

"Settling in" can happen a bit so see how it feels in coming days.  It's also wise to retune the bass after making adjustments because it can affect the opposing force of the string tension. 

Changes in weather have the biggest effect on mine but even my different basses move in different ways so it's a bit organic.  And for me, I see the double-truss rods as working like a single force against the pull of the strings.  So I adjust them with roughly the same amount of torque or tightness - but just by feel.  My fingerboards are narrower than yours but I've never been aware of one side having more relief than the other as a result of the double-rod setup.  Maybe that's possible, but I don't know.

The relief (gap to the frets) across the fingerboard is completely up to you but doesn't need to be the same from one side to another.  Because your low B-string is likely to move quite a bit farther than your high G.  I make up for that variation by tilting the bridge so it's higher on the low-string side.

Carry on!  Don't forget to sit and play that thing for many hours at a time. 
Jimmy J

[Notachemist]

Hey Oscar,

Great!  Glad to hear you've overcome your fears and done some adjusting.  That's why those nuts are there and accessible so don't be afraid. 

How you set up your action is a personal thing so people may have different approaches.  It is all only about how it feels to you when you play.  Set it up to best suit your playing style, it feels comfortable, and you can get what you want out of the instrument.  This is NOT an exact science so when you talk about feeler gauges and torque wrenches you are (in my opinion) getting a little too far into the deep end.    It's just about how YOU like the action to be.

"Settling in" can happen a bit so see how it feels in coming days.  It's also wise to retune the bass after making adjustments because it can affect the opposing force of the string tension. 

Changes in weather have the biggest effect on mine but even my different basses move in different ways so it's a bit organic.  And for me, I see the double-truss rods as working like a single force against the pull of the strings.  So I adjust them with roughly the same amount of torque or tightness - but just by feel.  My fingerboards are narrower than yours but I've never been aware of one side having more relief than the other as a result of the double-rod setup.  Maybe that's possible, but I don't know.

The relief (gap to the frets) across the fingerboard is completely up to you but doesn't need to be the same from one side to another.  Because your low B-string is likely to move quite a bit farther than your high G.  I make up for that variation by tilting the bridge so it's higher on the low-string side.

Carry on!  Don't forget to sit and play that thing for many hours at a time. 
Jimmy J

Hey Jimmy

Yes - thank you very much for helping me in overcoming my fear of the dual truss rods - it is, after all, the first time I have seen an instrument with this setup.

Yeah that's a great way of articulating what I was trying to express! I sometimes have a tendency to approach it as a very exact science, and sometimes forget that there are so many variables that have an effect on how an instrument plays and feels over time. As you said, it IS a well made tool to help us play the music we like and also hopefully inspire us, which ultimately is the end goal (in my opinion at least). After all, they are handmade by talented humans, and not engineered to miniscule specifications by a machine from beginning to end. Thankfully the instruments are very adjustable, and Alembic's are very well made instruments, so we have the opportunity to find out what works out the best for us, by experimenting.

Now that you mention that you have a more narrow fingerboard, I'm curious to know how narrow it is, if you don't mind sharing. As you said earlier, Alembic can customize an instrument to great lengths, so I'm curious to know what you like the most - after all, it is a bit of a journey to travel across the Atlantic Ocean to visit the Alembic factory, so I am just thankful that I have the opportunity to play an instrument this nice.

Back to turning the filter knobs!
Oscar

[JimmyJ]

Hey Oscar,

Glad you're enjoying your setup journey.  It is great that they're so well built and still adjustable to suit an individual's tastes.

I don't mean to highjack your thread but since you asked; my first 5-string was made in 1976 and I think it may have been built on a 4-string neck.  I found the close string spacing worked well for me so all 5 of my Alembics were similarly built.  My 3-fretted basses all have a nut that is about 1-7/8" (48mm) from edge to edge.  Fingerboard at the 12th fret is around 2-1/8" (54mm) wide and at the 24th fret about 2-1/4" (58mm).  My two fretless basses have graphite necks and so they have slightly different proportions.  A smaller nut at around 1-5/8" (42mm), same 12th fret 2-1/8" (54mm) and wider at the 24th 2-3/8" (60mm).  The end result is that most people feel the string spacing is a bit tight for the right hand.  But that's what I'm used to and I still like it.  Anything else I play feels way too big.   

You can see how one might get very specific about a custom build.  And Alembic can basically do whatever you can dream up.  It's an amazing shop.

Carry on now.  Keep twiddling and then do more noodling. (Hope that doesn't translate wrong.)
Jimmy J

[Notachemist]

Hey Oscar,

Glad you're enjoying your setup journey.  It is great that they're so well built and still adjustable to suit an individual's tastes.

I don't mean to highjack your thread but since you asked; my first 5-string was made in 1976 and I think it may have been built on a 4-string neck.  I found the close string spacing worked well for me so all 5 of my Alembics were similarly built.  My 3-fretted basses all have a nut that is about 1-7/8" (48mm) from edge to edge.  Fingerboard at the 12th fret is around 2-1/8" (54mm) wide and at the 24th fret about 2-1/4" (58mm).  My two fretless basses have graphite necks and so they have slightly different proportions.  A smaller nut at around 1-5/8" (42mm), same 12th fret 2-1/8" (54mm) and wider at the 24th 2-3/8" (60mm).  The end result is that most people feel the string spacing is a bit tight for the right hand.  But that's what I'm used to and I still like it.  Anything else I play feels way too big.   

You can see how one might get very specific about a custom build.  And Alembic can basically do whatever you can dream up.  It's an amazing shop.

Carry on now.  Keep twiddling and then do more noodling. (Hope that doesn't translate wrong.)
Jimmy J

Hey Jimmy

Interesting that your 5-string was built on a 4 string neck. I can imagine that does make for a quite tight string spacing, but also allows for very controlled and economical right hand technique. Just like Gary Willis called his ramp a "slap stopper" I guess your string spacing functions in a similar way, haha. Does your neck also affect how the string tension feels? They feel a bit tight to me, but I read somewhere on this site that Alembics can feel a bit tighter than other brands, but why this is the case, aside from the properties of strings, I am not sure of. I noticed that the (tailpiece?) on your bridge looks a lot different than on a MK - was that also something you ordered specifically to allow for it to harmonize with your neck? It must feel a lot more wide to play a "standard" 5 string neck, if you are used to those dimensions - I also felt the same way, coming from a 4 string to this. Again, it would probably also be a quite costly affair if you suddenly decided that a different neck width felt better, haha!!

Speaking of bridges: Since you mentioned that you raised the bass side slightly more than the treble side, I noticed that the bridge on this MK is as low as can go on the treble side, and with more height on the bass side. The action at the 12th fret is just around 2.0 mm on the low B, and around the same for the treble side - the nut also looks slightly slanted towards the treble side, but I haven't measured it (yet! - just kidding). Does that mean this bridge doesn't allow for much lower than 2.0 mm action, or am I misunderstanding something? Like you said, action is a personal preference, but I haven't seen a bridge like this before.

Back to twiddling and noodling (with time, hopefully more noodling than twiddling - hope that also doesn't translate wrong)
Oscar

[JimmyJ]

Hey again Oscar,

I never confirmed that my original 5 was on a 4-string neck but the dimensions seem to indicate that was the case.  And I believe Alembic's experiment with graphite necks were all built around the same mold so 4- or 5-string.  My fretless 5s might be quite rare in that case.

That's right, I never got into slap-style playing.  Not necessarily because of my string spacing but at some point I decided to leave that to the experts.  I never got pick-playing together either.  I might just be lazy! 

The string tension "feel" is one of those things I've never quite understood. Maybe one of the luthiers here can explain further.  It obviously varies based on scale length, string gauges, and the material the strings are made of.  Even the same gauges and materials but built by different manufacturers can feel different.  But I'm pretty sure bearing angle (if that's the correct term) over the nut and bridge, plus the length of string beyond the nut and bridge also affect the feel.  That's all a mystery to me.

My tailpiece design is slightly odd and partially an accident relating to my 1976 5-string.  I've always enjoyed fresh strings so my request was for a "quick-change" tailpiece.  I knew I was going to stick with ghs Boomers so the idea was to design the tailpiece around that specific ball-end.  Alembic came up with the idea of steel pins mounted into a brass plate which the ball-ends could easily be slipped over.

But a further issue we had related to "fan" headstock on that bass (see pic below - not mine but borrowed from another thread).  It had 3-tuners on the low-string side and 2 on the high-string side which meant the space between the nut and the tuning peg was shortest on my lowest string.  Nobody sold 5-string sets at that time so I started with the largest E-string I could find, a .120.  The problem was, the winding on that string was so long it barely tapered before reaching the tuning peg.  And that large winding was not going to be happy wrapping around the small Schaller peg.

So the clever answer was to extend the end of the string as far as possible beyond the bridge allowing the upper end to start tapering just as it passed the nut.  Second pic below is the wacky result - although ironically in that pic I was not using the "extended" pin.

When I had the replacement basses made I requested headstocks with 2-tuners on the low-string side and 3 on the high-string side to help alleviate this issue with the B-string.  But I really enjoyed the "quick-change" idea of sliding the ghs ball-ends onto pins so that's how we got to the current design (pic 3).

Bridge; yes, it's not abnormal for the high-string side to be set very low.  (And a 2mm action sounds nice and low!).  Again, all parameters may change if you ever try different string gauges or even brands.  Truss rod and bridge height adjustments work hand in hand so you should always be able to get to where you need to by coordinating those adjustments.  However, if for example you ever ran into a situation where you couldn't lower the bridge far enough then you could look into deepening the slots of the bridge saddles.  Not a major operation but hopefully you won't need to go that far.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.
Jimmy J

[Notachemist]

Hey again Oscar,

I never confirmed that my original 5 was on a 4-string neck but the dimensions seem to indicate that was the case.  And I believe Alembic's experiment with graphite necks were all built around the same mold so 4- or 5-string.  My fretless 5s might be quite rare in that case.

That's right, I never got into slap-style playing.  Not necessarily because of my string spacing but at some point I decided to leave that to the experts.  I never got pick-playing together either.  I might just be lazy! 

The string tension "feel" is one of those things I've never quite understood. Maybe one of the luthiers here can explain further.  It obviously varies based on scale length, string gauges, and the material the strings are made of.  Even the same gauges and materials but built by different manufacturers can feel different.  But I'm pretty sure bearing angle (if that's the correct term) over the nut and bridge, plus the length of string beyond the nut and bridge also affect the feel.  That's all a mystery to me.

My tailpiece design is slightly odd and partially an accident relating to my 1976 5-string.  I've always enjoyed fresh strings so my request was for a "quick-change" tailpiece.  I knew I was going to stick with ghs Boomers so the idea was to design the tailpiece around that specific ball-end.  Alembic came up with the idea of steel pins mounted into a brass plate which the ball-ends could easily be slipped over.

But a further issue we had related to "fan" headstock on that bass (see pic below - not mine but borrowed from another thread).  It had 3-tuners on the low-string side and 2 on the high-string side which meant the space between the nut and the tuning peg was shortest on my lowest string.  Nobody sold 5-string sets at that time so I started with the largest E-string I could find, a .120.  The problem was, the winding on that string was so long it barely tapered before reaching the tuning peg.  And that large winding was not going to be happy wrapping around the small Schaller peg.

So the clever answer was to extend the end of the string as far as possible beyond the bridge allowing the upper end to start tapering just as it passed the nut.  Second pic below is the wacky result - although ironically in that pic I was not using the "extended" pin.

When I had the replacement basses made I requested headstocks with 2-tuners on the low-string side and 3 on the high-string side to help alleviate this issue with the B-string.  But I really enjoyed the "quick-change" idea of sliding the ghs ball-ends onto pins so that's how we got to the current design (pic 3).

Bridge; yes, it's not abnormal for the high-string side to be set very low.  (And a 2mm action sounds nice and low!).  Again, all parameters may change if you ever try different string gauges or even brands.  Truss rod and bridge height adjustments work hand in hand so you should always be able to get to where you need to by coordinating those adjustments.  However, if for example you ever ran into a situation where you couldn't lower the bridge far enough then you could look into deepening the slots of the bridge saddles.  Not a major operation but hopefully you won't need to go that far.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.
Jimmy J

Hey Jimmy

First of all - please don't apologize for the elaborate reply - it was (and is) a very interesting and insightful read.
Second of all - I apologize for the delay.

The way that you and Alembic were able to come up with a solution to the 5 string dillemma is as much of an interesting read, as it also is an entertaining read, if that makes sense. I honestly thought the 2-3 string split on the headstock, was a way to distribute the string tension across the neck and bridge, but I guess, that in a way, your initial struggles with tapering and string length, paved the way for us to be able to enjoy the modern reiteration of the 5-string electric bass, so thank you for that . In my opinion, the latest reiteration of your tailpiece is the most aesthetically pleasing one, and I am usually a function over form-kind-of-person, but I also find it interesting to know if the design of the tailpiece allows for you to feel very small changes in the way your preferred strings have evolved over the years? If they even have, and if that makes sense. and also: With experience, does it still, to this day, make a big difference in the speed when changing your strings? (sorry, I just had to ask that question.)

As you said earlier, Alembic can build almost anything a bass player can imagine (which I feel you have demonstrated with your reply!) so I am curious to know what inspired you to start playing a 5-string bass - I hope my questions don't bother you (and please, do not worry about the course of the thread, or the length of your replies, at all!)

Sorry in advance, for MY reply.
Oscar

[JimmyJ]

Oscar,

Well OK then I'll keep going.    I've got a 20-year-long thread of my own in here if you want to read the entire novel:
https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=8041.0
And here's a forum trick; if you spend some bit time stepping through and selecting threads, the next time you log in you can click on "show unread posts since last visit" near your name in the upper left of the page and see only what's new. 

Back to your questions...  I think the traditional "fan" headstock and then the later "cone" shape were designed to make the string pull straight over the nut.  I mean as you look at it straight on the string doesn't turn left or right but runs straight from the nut to the tuning post (see that "fan" shape pic above).  It doesn't matter whether you have a 2/3, a 3/2, or even a Fender style with all tuners in a row because the tension remains the same.

Amazingly, ghs has been winding these questionably named "Boomers" on the same machines and with the same formula for all these years.  The company has been passed down to younger management who have kept it going and the product has been very reliable.

Here's a quick and boring description of my string change routine:
I remove one string and set the tuning machine's empty slot in the direction of the neck.  I pop the new string's ball end onto the tailpiece pin, pull it tight, wrap the upper part around the tuning post ONCE, bend it downward into the slot, and bend it outward after the slot.  Then I pop the ball end off the pin and give the string a twist in the direction of the outer winding (that's just one of my weird things).  Pop it back on and bring it up to pitch.  Move to the next string.  Once I've done all five I'll press the strings into each bend - pressing down on both sides the bridge, same over the nut, same at the tuning peg.  Then I'll grab the middle of each string and pull it back and forth like I'm trying to shoot arrows with a bow.  I bring it all up to pitch and it's ready to go - and stays in tune from that point on.

It's still a relatively quick operation and it wouldn't be that much slower with a traditional tailpiece.  It's not like a Strat or anything.  But this still works for me and let's just say I've had a lot of practice over the years.

Again, probably all covered in my mile-long thread but ... my dad was an upright player in the Minnesota Orchestra when I was a kid.  Many of the orchestra basses had low-C "extensions" which are mechanically keyed "fingers" which extend the low-E string down to C.  We were trying to figure out how to do that on an electric bass but finding an extra long E-string and trying to add moving mechanics which wouldn't be heard through the amp seemed unworkable.  Some orchestra players - particularly in Europe at that time - had begun playing 5-string basses so that's what got us pointed in this direction.  I'm pretty sure Alembic had already made some multi-string basses by the mid-70's but most had upper strings.  Even Fender made a five in the '60's but hilariously it had a high-string and a shorter fingerboard so no extra notes were available.

There you have it.  Now you know everything!

Thanks,
Jimmy J

[Notachemist]

Oscar,

Well OK then I'll keep going.    I've got a 20-year-long thread of my own in here if you want to read the entire novel:
https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=8041.0
And here's a forum trick; if you spend some bit time stepping through and selecting threads, the next time you log in you can click on "show unread posts since last visit" near your name in the upper left of the page and see only what's new. 

Back to your questions...  I think the traditional "fan" headstock and then the later "cone" shape were designed to make the string pull straight over the nut.  I mean as you look at it straight on the string doesn't turn left or right but runs straight from the nut to the tuning post (see that "fan" shape pic above).  It doesn't matter whether you have a 2/3, a 3/2, or even a Fender style with all tuners in a row because the tension remains the same.

Amazingly, ghs has been winding these questionably named "Boomers" on the same machines and with the same formula for all these years.  The company has been passed down to younger management who have kept it going and the product has been very reliable.

Here's a quick and boring description of my string change routine:
I remove one string and set the tuning machine's empty slot in the direction of the neck.  I pop the new string's ball end onto the tailpiece pin, pull it tight, wrap the upper part around the tuning post ONCE, bend it downward into the slot, and bend it outward after the slot.  Then I pop the ball end off the pin and give the string a twist in the direction of the outer winding (that's just one of my weird things).  Pop it back on and bring it up to pitch.  Move to the next string.  Once I've done all five I'll press the strings into each bend - pressing down on both sides the bridge, same over the nut, same at the tuning peg.  Then I'll grab the middle of each string and pull it back and forth like I'm trying to shoot arrows with a bow.  I bring it all up to pitch and it's ready to go - and stays in tune from that point on.

It's still a relatively quick operation and it wouldn't be that much slower with a traditional tailpiece.  It's not like a Strat or anything.  But this still works for me and let's just say I've had a lot of practice over the years.

Again, probably all covered in my mile-long thread but ... my dad was an upright player in the Minnesota Orchestra when I was a kid.  Many of the orchestra basses had low-C "extensions" which are mechanically keyed "fingers" which extend the low-E string down to C.  We were trying to figure out how to do that on an electric bass but finding an extra long E-string and trying to add moving mechanics which wouldn't be heard through the amp seemed unworkable.  Some orchestra players - particularly in Europe at that time - had begun playing 5-string basses so that's what got us pointed in this direction.  I'm pretty sure Alembic had already made some multi-string basses by the mid-70's but most had upper strings.  Even Fender made a five in the '60's but hilariously it had a high-string and a shorter fingerboard so no extra notes were available.

There you have it.  Now you know everything!

Thanks,
Jimmy J

Hey Jimmy

Thanks for the tip -  so far I have manually navigated to this thread, but it's a great way of also seeing what's going on.

I didn't know about the thread that you linked, but it didn't take long for me to find almost all of the questions I have asked you thus far, answered at some point... Sorry for that, haha . I did read a few very interesting stories about your time with Allan Holdsworth (an artist whose music AND playing, I greatly appreciate, and who continues to inspire me, but also sometimes frighten me - meant in the most appreciate way, of course!)

I recall reading on this forum, a saying that goes something along the lines of: "In the beginning, you don't play an Alembic - it plays you!", And I must say that, although I have gotten a bit more used to it by now, it sometimes still makes sure to let me know "who's in charge", for now. I can imagine how these instruments, long term, really force you to pay attention to your technique, but also reward you diligently. But then again, playing an Alembic through an Audio Interface kind of is throwing yourself straight into the deep, when your used to a J-style bass! It's impressive how the same settings and the same instrument, can sound quite different on different days - I don't think I have ever seen this on another instrument, but I don't mind it at all - it adds some "spice" to playing an Alembic, which around these parts, is already a bit of an exotic (meant in a good way) thing. For now, the pan knob is tilted slightly to the bridge pickup, and I'm letting the filters stay wide open with both Q-switches enabled. Tomorrow or in a few days, they will probably have changed - and I haven't even begun to look at the trim pots!

I will add, that I listened to you, and I have made sure so far, to sit down and play that thing for hours on end!
Oscar