Author Topic: WWYD: Series I has "nasal" tone?! (Read 435 times)

jigme · « **on:** August 03, 2004, 09:57:55 AM »

I have a Pbass with 70's era Series I innards. I have two issues with this bass: the tone can be very nasal and kind of thin; and it seems to get lost in the mix sometimes. I can get plenty of growl, volume, highs and lows, but I'd guess I'd call it warm mids are missing. There's no punch.

I play through a WWoods into a 15 BagEnd. I've tried TI flats but I sacrifice other tones with flats. Now I have very old Dean Markley Blue Steels on it, which I know are twangy but these are probably 4 years old.

WWYD? Different strings, tube preamp...?

I would be greatly indebted! This has been a source of frustration for 20 years! I'm a patient man ;0)

Cheers,

Jeffrey

kayo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 03, 2004, 10:15:10 AM »

Jeffrey

Start with string replacement - with roundwounds the loosening of the windings and the grit and soil that gets into the windings affect tone immensely - 4 years is far too long - others may disagree but - I use exclusively roundwounds and I have a very aggressive funky slap style. My strings go dead and develop tone anomalies after about 18 hours of playing..... at that point not only do they feel terrible and no longer respond with the same resiliency, they also start to break starting with the G, then the D, and on occasion the A.

Changing strings alone can make a significant difference in your tone. I'm sure others will chime in with their expert opinions on additional and/or differing ideas.

Good Luck!

jagerphan84 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2004, 10:38:57 AM »

My two cents:

With Series I guts, I would highly doubt that the bass itself is the problem. I would think that your amplification system is likely the biggest factor here. The BagEnd 15 is surely a great cab, but that big speaker is best suited for your lower frequencies. A second cabinet, probably a 210 or something similar, would help to bring out the mids and highs. An Eden, Bag End, Epifani, or other 210 could really boost the midrange 'punch.'

If you are in the mood to totally revamp your system, I think it would be beneficial for your sound if you were to put together a rig with an Alembic preamp and a good power amp (QSC, Crown, etc).

If you like the WWoods and want to stick to a single cab setup, take a look at the 212 cabinets out there. They don't lose much on the bass end, but they can handle mids and highs better than most 15s, especially if the unit has a horn. I have an Ampeg SVR 212 which can bump some bass when I need it to, but the mids have all the punch I could ask for.

As Kayo said above, the strings have a huge impact on your sound, so that would be a good place to start, but I would expect that the problem won't be completely resolved by new strings alone.

Hope this helps!
Adam

gregslegs · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2004, 12:00:57 PM »

I seem to remember reading/hearing that James Jamerson never changed his strings. It gave him what he called 'the funk'. I would call it 'funk' too, but with a differenct connotation. Jamerson definitely had punch to his sound, but it was a flat punch.

I would go with the smaller cabinet. I gigged for years with a MusicMan playing through an SWR 15 and I had the same complaint with that setup. Great lows, good presence through the horn, but no punch. Going with a 210 or a 212 would make a HUGE difference. I picked up an Aguilar 410 cabinet the other day (I didn't know that they even made speaker cabinets), and I was extremely impressed. Give them a listen if you can.

But for God's sake, keep the Walter Woods! It is to amplifiers, what Alembics are to the bass.

Greg

jigme · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2004, 12:28:22 PM »

Guys,

Strings~ Altho' new strings will help I don't think this will take me 'round the bend. But I surely need a new set!

Cabs~ Hadn't really considered this and what you say makes good sense. I like the BagEnds so I'll try a 2x10 cab.

Amp~ Ahhh, the Walter Woods, I ain't ever gonna let it go!!!

The Alembic sound~ See, I've been wondering if the nasality of my tone (hey now, there's a new use of the word nasal!), is simply part of the Alembic sound.(The early Stanley Clarke stuff has a bit if this in it.) So I wonder if this is part of the Series I sound or if there is something off with my electronics or something I need to do differently with the tone controls and Q switches?

~ Jeffrey

jagerphan84 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2004, 12:50:25 PM »

Just letting my lack of experience with the world show - I had heard the name 'Walter Woods,' but I had never seen any review or heard any comments about the amps. After doing a brief bit of reading, I retract my above statement about switching to the preamp & power amp, obviously the Walter Woods is not the weak link in this chain. In fact, I'm gonna be looking for one myself; my 6-space rack weighs in at about 85 pounds, and more than 30 of that is the power amp. Any way to reduce the weight without compromising tone sounds good to me!

palembic · « **Reply #6 on:** August 03, 2004, 02:24:39 PM »

Well ...for what I can put into this.
I used the word nosy a thousand or what posts ago. Well ...it is NOT the appropriate english word and nasal is a lot better but I called it nosy.
How did I come to that.
When assembling Tweak Peaks I did some A/B-ing at EVH place in Hilversum. SWR, Eden and Glockenklang. Beware ...I am NOT trying to convince anyone to buy something, I am just trying to report.
Anyway.
When A/B-ing I experienced a very nosy (well ...you know ...let's calll it nasal) tone with my -on that moment SWR SM-400 amp- as a reference for all cabs produced by SWR and Eden. Stronger with Eden than with SWR.
I discussed this with EVH and he said that those (and most) cabs are biased to that nasal (mid) tone. The reason is sound-economical: a nasal sound cuts through any mix and is very LOUD. Well ...we experience it as a very loud (bass)sound. Other cabs -like the Glocks- are not so ecnomical and are more ...well ...eu ...neutral and clean and that is something you have to like. To be loud with the Glocks ...well ...you need more power. The cabs don't bias to the mid. My friend and brother Spider Ollie did the same A/B-ing on the same place (EVH in Hilversum) and didn't like Glockenklang AT ALL. If I am well informed he plays Eden now and so the most nasal of all.
Listen ...I KNOW this is highly subjective and personal but I can say that it is the first time I did some serious A/B-ing on cabs with an amp on locked setting and the results were in my ears quite amazing.
It is to everybody's personal ears to conclude what HE likes. Lile Spider Ollie and me highly differ in taste of bass sound.

Paul the bad one

son_of_magni · « **Reply #7 on:** August 03, 2004, 03:47:55 PM »

I have to agree with all the comments about 10's. A 15 with a horn, for instance, is a cheap way to make a wide range speaker. But nothing beats a 4x10 for punch. I'm currently using 4 10's, a horn, and an 18. This might be the perfect setup, but it's the 10's that make it work.
SoM

PS, If I had a nosy speaker, I'd tell it to mind it's own business!

dela217 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2004, 07:21:50 PM »

Jigme - It may not be the case, but it might be worth mentioning. Do you notice the nasal tone whith both pickups selected? Does it go away when only one pickup is used? If that is the case, the source of your nasalness could be that you pickups are wired out of series. I had an Alembic with the same sort of problem. If the nasal sound goes away when you are using one pickup, that could be the case. With the 70's style electronics, it is not a real easy fix. You would have to reverse the polarity of one of the pickups on the PF6 card. That would require some soldering.

It could be possible, I have seen it before.

Michael

pace · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2004, 06:15:29 AM »

The Walter Woods is the weakest link!!!! SELL IT TO ME!!!

Manfred · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:46:24 AM »

Mike,

there's a Walter Woods amp on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10171&item=3739996065&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Manfred

jigme · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2004, 08:30:59 AM »

Hi,

Palembic-- you said The reason is sound-economical: a nasal sound cuts through any mix and is very LOUD. This nasal tone may be a good thing for cutting thru, but does it sound good to my ears? Not really. But this is something I didn't know about. thanks.

dela-- a ha! I hadn't thot of this at all! These electronics are pretty old now (25+) and they could use an overhaul by Alembic. It may cost a pretty penny. I'll contact Mica about it. I usually use only one pup. I just found last night that my bridge pup isn't working at all so it may be time.

pace-- I know...this amp SUCKS!! I can't figure why I've kept it for 11years. ;0) The one on eBay is virtually the same model I have.

Nobody has suggested a Sansamp or other such device. Anyone use a box to warm up the sound?

--Jeffrey

kayo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2004, 01:28:39 PM »

Jigme

I have used various outboard gear to see what kind of impact they would have on my sound (to warm it up). Sansamp for Bass, Aphex aural exciter, BBE Sonic Maximizer, Sadowsky preamp/DI, Alembic F-1X.

Truth is, (and I can only speak for me) that with my rig (Rogue with 2 sets of Q's and 2 sets of quick tone switches - one for each pickup, Eden WT-800, Bag End Q10BX-D, EA 1x10 3 way - soon to add the Bag End Infra M and Bag End 1x18) I found that these products did not greatly add much that I could not already get from my existing set-up. There were some unique sounds to be gained, but I was not looking for and effect so much as I was looking for a permanent addition to my signal path that enhanced my sound significantly. I did end up buying the Sansamp (foot pedal vs rackmount) but not as a a permanent addition to my set up, more as either an effect, or an addition to my toolkit for scenarios where I may not be able to bring my rig, or if I'm in a recording situation where they want me to go direct.

I suppose much of what this consideration would be based on is what your existing rig is and what it is that you think it may be lacking?

One thing I know for sure - I do all my tracking digitally, and to avoid sounding too clean or sterile, I make sure that I run (just about) everything through either a tube compressor or a tube preamp. This bring back some of the warmth of the musical harmonic distortion that would otherwise be left out with a purely digital sound source. Mic placement for speakers can also add some warmth - and in some cases I even mic my strings - just so I can hear the grit with slides and slaps independantly from the rest of the mix.

Amp & Speaker configuration would be a big factor for me in deciding if/when to use one of the aforementioned processors.

Hope that helps

jigme · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2004, 08:10:57 PM »

Kayo ~

This is very helpful. I was hoping somebody had tried several different processors/preamps/stomp boxes and could help me out. You have and besides the SansAmp they haven't given you the warmth (except for recording).

I like my WWoods and BagEnd (awesome cabs, right kayo?) and I don't want to revamp my setup. What I distill from all this good advice is:

1)try some 2x10 cabs,
2)new nickel strings, and
3)get my electronics overhauled.

The maple neck and ash body probably contribute to the brittleness of the sound, but unless I put the electronics in another bass this won't change.

Thanks for all the good input!

Cheers ~

Jeffrey

kayo · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2004, 09:10:27 AM »

Jeffrey

Yeah - I love my Bag End. In a perfect world money would be no object and I would have mutiple amp/pre-amp/cabinet/bass configurations..... but being the working stiff that I am and I can only afford one Rig and currently 2 basses - I am more than happy with the choices I have made given my style and preference for playing a musical genre (R&B, Funk, Soul).

20 years back just about everyone had 15 cabs.... I had even jumped on that bandwagon. Once I had the cashflow for higher end gear I had even purchased the very first bass rig assembled by Mesa Boogie... the D-180 (which I came to hate) I think it was called with a road ready 1x15 cab. I had it loaded with an extended range EV... it was ok. I have come to find that I would not by choice choose a one speaker rig ever again. The advent of the 4x10 configuration made me realize that there is something to be said about a multiple speaker cabinet (with the exception of a 2x15 which I am not particularly fond of either). The only one speaker cab I would use - and only in conjunction with a 2x12 or a 4x10 - would be a 1x18.

For practicing at home I love my EA 1x10 (it's a 3-way) with incredible punch, clarity, power handling, range and resiliency.

You'll be very happy once you implement the 3 items you listed.

Good luck!