De-tuning... when did that start?

[edwardofhuncote]

I've been wearing out this new Fleetwood Mac "Rumours - Live" set the past few days, and what with my finely-honed sense of listening from not being able to play for so long, I have taken notice of some things that I hadn't really zeroed-in on before.

One of the tracks is "I'm So Afraid", the close-out song from the eponymous 1975 "White Fleetwood Mac Album" dirctly before Rumours. The original take is in G min. But every time it's played live, it's been a step down in F min. Either way, on the studio record or live, John is very clearly playing notes below the low E... so he had to have de-tuned his bass... and for a tune like "So Afraid" in F minor, that low string had to be a C to get him the relative fifth. (makes me strongly suspect he had a bass setup for this... I know for sure he has in recent years. Not only for this tune, but others. How did he manage this in 1977 though? Just tune on the fly?

So anyway, I started wondering; when did de-tuning a bass guitar, at least the low string, become a thing? I would have thought it was a while yet, before mechanical tuners for this came about.


Here is the original take-

And here's the live one-

Anybody remember the first time you heard a sub-E ?

[cozmik_cowboy]

Earl invented the Scruggs tuner in 1952.  I have seen doghouses with an low-side fingerboard extension and a mechanical stop for E from long ago.

Sorry, best answer I can give.......

Peter

[edwardofhuncote]

No idea if they were first, but Hipshot detuner for bass originates in California, 1982. https://hipshotproducts.com/pages/about

I don't remember ever seeing John with any-such device on his basses. I'm just guessing he either retuned on the fly for So Afraid, or grabbed his Fender.

[keith_h]

Michael Henderson was reported to be using drop tunings back in the 60's. Drop D itself goes back to the Renaissance though I can't say it was used on bass instruments back then. I suspect this is one of those things where the true origin is unknown.   

[hankster]

I think the real question might be “when and how did so-called standard tunings become prominent?”  Music with lower-than-E requirements has been around forever, and I certainly encountered it in the legit repertoire with some frequency in music from the 18th and 19th centuries although I can’t remember which pieces (it’s been 45 years since I played in that environment). In the pop and rock genre, using lower tunings has been pretty common I think for many many years, if for no other reason than to match keys with a singer’s range. Interesting question though.

[cozmik_cowboy]

I think the real question might be “when and how did so-called standard tunings become prominent?”  [snip]In the pop and rock genre, using lower tunings has been pretty common I think for many many years....

Heck, the reason it's so hard to learn play like the old blues guys is that many of them, having nobody to tell them otherwise, invented their own tunings.

Peter

[hieronymous]

Good call on Michael Henderson - you can hear him detune mid-song on Agartha which is live 1975.

I know that Anthony Jackson detuned his Precision Bass - he talked about it in an old Guitar Player interview - but I don't remember the timeline. His first "contrabass" by Carl Thompson was 1975, so presumably before that.

I like the comments about blues players - Pete Cosey (also on Agartha) talks about alternate tunings he would use, and I recall seeing him refer to Jimi Hendrix's tuning the entire down to Eb as an "alternate tuning" - I always just thought of it as tuning down, but it kind of opened up a different way of thinking about it.

OK, I found the reference - Pete Cosey: "I used at least thirty-six different tuning systems, place the strings in different places, and so on. One of my tuning is the E-flat tuning, which Hendrix got from me." (From Miles Beyond: The Electric Explorations of Miles Davis, 1967-1991, p. 165)


EDIT to add: I was trying to remember the earliest examples I am aware of, but another player who does interesting tunings is Doug Pinnick of King's X. His stuff is later though (80s and on)

[StephenR]

A number of Hendrix tunes are definitely in Eb, not sure what Noel did as far as tuning his bass. Considering how out of tune Hendrix was on stage a lot of the time I am surprised he tuned his guitars down and loosened the string tension further.

I suspect John McVie had a bass available on stage tuned down to play "I'm So Afraid". Most likely, after they recorded it, the key was changed to better fit the vocalist and John decided it was easier to tune a bass down and play the same parts as on the record instead of change the parts to fit the new key. People in the audience hear the same parts, same tune and have no idea of the key, just know it sounds like the record to them.

I saw Joni Mitchell in 1998, she started a tune realized her guitar had the wrong tuning and had to stop. She was playing a Parker Fly guitar at this show with a midi interface and had presets for the different tunings she uses, most of them her own invention. She hit the wrong preset and had to stop, change it and restart the song. She thought it was funny and it certainly took less time to change the midi-patch than it would have to retune an acoustic guitar. Not sure she used the Parker again after that tour, it was the only time I saw her perform. The Parker did not sound like an acoustic guitar so it may have been a short-lived experiment.

[cozmik_cowboy]

I read that before the presets became an ption, Joni had stopped touring because she had to carry something like 60 guitars for all her tunings.

Considering how little I can handle just the one tuning, this boggles my mind.

And there is a video of Michael Manring playing his 'Hyperbass", with a detuner at each end of each string; he uses each string in each of its 3 possible states.  I once figured it out, but there are reasons I's an historian instead of a mathematician, so I'm not going to do that again; but if memory serves, it was over 60 tunings - in one song........

Peter (who now go hide in a corner and play his cowboy chords)

[fclef6]

I am cursed with perfect pitch and I recall filling in for the bass player of a power trio, and the first tune the guitarist called on the gig was “Pride & Joy” in E. Surprise…surprise…it’s actually Eb! Glad I was using my 6 string.

[pauldo]

I read that before the presets became an ption, Joni had stopped touring because she had to carry something like 60 guitars for all her tunings.

Considering how little I can handle just the one tuning, this boggles my mind.

And there is a video of Michael Manring playing his 'Hyperbass", with a detuner at each end of each string; he uses each string in each of its 3 possible states.  I once figured it out, but there are reasons I's an historian instead of a mathematician, so I'm not going to do that again; but if memory serves, it was over 60 tunings - in one song........

Peter (who now go hide in a corner and play his cowboy chords)

Was just about to mention Manring.   No idea how he keeps track of his fingerboard with all of this different switches. 😳

[gearhed289]

Michael Rutherford used to re-tune his 12 string guitar on stage for different songs. This is part of what led Gabriel to telling long stories between songs. Mike said in his autobiography that he can't even remember some of the tunings he used! 

[cozmik_cowboy]

Got this in an e-mail from Gold Tone this AM; not bass related, but an interesting new take on the detuner: 

Peter

[BeenDown139]

one of the guit@rists a band ago had a stompbox that gave him instant drop D tuning for his whole guit@r.  it was an expensive little bugger, i  think he said he payed $250 USD for it.  it was great for songs like "man in teh box" and such.  i get a thrill outta hammering on a low C#  while some guy's screaming "can you sew my eyes shut?".

i've played a 5-string since 1992.  never have i had to pound my B-string like i did in that band.  if i was a 4our-string player, i woulda either had to get a big $ stompbox, detune on the fly (i hate that), put a (*gasp*) hipshot on one of my basses or carry a drop-tuned and standard-tuned bass on stage with me.  i once  hung with another player who detuned his 5-string a whole step and pounded it with a pick.  he made it look entertaining.  myself, i hate detuning.  and floppy strings.  now i got a headache.  sheesh.

[cozmik_cowboy]

i woulda either had to get a big $ stompbox, detune on the fly (i hate that), put a (*gasp*) hipshot on one of my basses or carry a drop-tuned and standard-tuned bass on stage with me. 

You forgot the double-neck option (now I have a backache).

Peter (who, to be honest, always has a backache.  It was all gthose years delivering windows & doors, really - nothing to do with the years carrying pianos and B-3s up fire escapes.........)