Author Topic: Truss Rod issue  (Read 610 times)

Hexman

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Truss Rod issue
« on: June 02, 2023, 09:04:31 AM »
I've recently bought a 2011 Mark King Signature Deluxe and I wanted a bit more relief in the neck as I play fairly heavy. When I tried to adjust the truss rods the nuts were already loose. I've tried tightening then and it straightens the neck but when I back them off i can only get the same small amount of relief. The strings are Ernie Ball 40-100. Any ideas how I can get the truss rod to back off? The Bass looks like  brand new and everything else works perfectly so it's a  bit of a suprise.
Thanks, Mike

adriaan

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2023, 09:23:58 AM »
Hi Mike,

Welcome to the Club, and congratulations on acquiring your bass!

If you are new to Alembics, doing a setup may be a bit different from what you're used to, but with a little guidance from Joey's legendary post on set-up you should get some grip on how to adjust bridge, nut and trussrods in order to get the action you prefer. You may also find that you can play with a lighter touch, so the relief does not have to be quite as pronounced as you're used to. Also you can easily reverse any adjustments you do, in case you go so far that the bass turns unplayable.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 09:59:09 AM by adriaan »

Hexman

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2023, 10:33:18 AM »
Hi Adriaan, thanks for the reply, I was using Joey's set up guide and that's where I'm struggling to get  .012" NECK RELIEF at the 7th fret. Cheers, Mike

NECK RELIEF

Install capo at first fret.  Hold the E or B string down where the neck meets the upper cutaway.  Check the gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the 7th fret.  Repeat on the G/C side of the fingerboard.  In both cases we want .012” relief, measured with the feeler gage at the 7th fret.  If this is not the case, remove the truss rod cover and access the two truss rods.  Loosen a little at a time if there’s less than .012” relief, or tighten a little if there’s more than .012” in the 7th fret gap.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 10:51:07 AM by Hexman »

edwardofhuncote

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2023, 01:10:08 PM »
Dehumidify it for a week or so. I've got one like that... she's zero-relief when it hot and sticky. You might also go up a gauge on strings.

flavofive

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2023, 05:11:21 PM »
Hi Mike, quite honestly, I have had that exact same issue with 2 Alembics (out of 3!) that I've owned.  I'm just trying to get to 0.012" as recommended in Joey's setup guide, which is even less than the typical ~0.015" I have typically heard as "normal" relief on regular non-Alembic basses.  But I could only get ~0.004" with the truss rods completely loosened - so lots of string buzz on the lower frets.
I'm not sure what to make of that... I've never had a problem getting at least "normal" 0.015" on any other non-Alembic bass I've ever owned.  I know it CAN be an issue on any type of bass, but let's just say I've had this problem more with Alembics than anything else, whatever the reason.

Regardless - here's some guidance based on my experience:

- Edward is right that heavier gauge strings might help.  But I'll add that string TENSION may be the most important factor.  This often goes hand-in-hand with gauge, but not always - you can get medium-gauge strings are that low, medium, or higher-tension, for example.  You could try strings that are known to be higher-tension, and see if that helps (if you don't mind higher-tension strings, that is).  Offhand, I think that GHS Boomers are somewhat higher-tension, if you're into roundwounds.  If you prefer flatwounds, my understanding is that this is even better - flatwounds tend to be higher-tension than roundwounds, although there is still a spectrum.

I personally do prefer LOW-tension strings.  So I admit that this doesn't help the neck relief issue - but again, all of my other basses can do it without a problem.

- You can try heat treatment, or a "heat press".
First, just a general disclaimer - I'm not a guitar tech, so this is just based on my research.  I would always recommend doing some further research on your own, of course.
This involves heating up the neck while applying a force in bend it in the direction you want - e.g. clamping the neck in the middle to bend it downwards.  The heat allows either the wood, glues, and/or finish material (depends who you ask) to permanently adjust, ideally.  You're basically resetting the "normal" position of the neck to add/subtract some amount of relief.
From what I have heard, the biggest risk is simply that the improvement MIGHT only be temporary, so you waste some money.  i.e. After maybe a week or two, it might go back to the original position.  But if it is done correctly, I have generally heard that most people have had positive results.  Obviously, care should be taken to not clamp the neck so much that something breaks, but that seems relatively unlikely as long as you're being careful.

You could take it to a well-regarded guitar shop, and have them do it.  I would suggest contacting them first to make sure that they have done it before, and agree that this is a good next step.  There are even specialized heat press machines that some of the bigger guitar shops own; it's specifically built to do this.
For my first Alembic that had this issue, I contacted Alembic, and ended up sending it to them to do a heat treatment.  So I know Alembic themselves are able to do this, or at least they were at the time.  This was a long time ago, so I don't remember exactly how much it helped in actual numbers, but I seem to recall that there was some noticeable PERMANENT improvement.

For my second Alembic bass, I did as much research as I could, and then I did it myself.  If you want more details, feel free to let me know via the email icon and I can send you more info.  After doing it a couple of times, I was able to get the relief from 0.004" to 0.007".  I stopped there, as this actually feels OK for now.  I wish it was 0.012", but I can always just do another heat press(es) later - I just haven't gotten around to it.


Good luck!!
Mike D
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 05:14:39 PM by flavofive »

flavofive

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2023, 05:17:35 PM »
I meant to mention - I suppose there is always the option of sending it to Alembic so they can rebuild the neck, but obviously that's a major operation.  It would probably be the most time/money of any option.

bigredbass

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2023, 06:28:52 PM »
The numbers I posted are a spot that works for most people, but also I always look at it as a way to get to the same beginning every time, and then dial it in from there to what works best for you.

Alembics generally tend to run very straight necks.  Alembic is very careful with storing, aging, humidity content, etc, in the shop.  Then the laminated woods with a 1/4" ebony slab for a fingerboard really, really tend to be very stiff.

I had one that would not relax.  I'm just creeped out about a heat press, so I would tune the whole thing up a third (D/G/C/F/B); it sure did add some relief, and I screwed the nuts down to 'catch it', and then I left it like that for a few days.  Now, I got away with it, but in no way would I recommend it for anyone else.  I've seen a similar move on more flexible necks by clamping the neck down and pulling up on it from the head end, and again, I've seen it done but would not recommend it.

IF they would ever decide to use 2-way truss rods, it would be a big help for this sort of thing.

Ed of H suggested humidifying it, I'd add to be sure the fingerboard is oiled.  I had another bass that would never take a setup and the relief stay put for any length of time.  I was always chasing it.  Next time I changed strings, I thought, 'gee that fingerboard looks dry'.  I get out the F1 fingerboard oil, it inhaled the first coat, inhaled the second coat, and finally on the third pass it finally wound up with excess to wipe up.  I did the post string change adjustment, and I haven't touched it now in over a year.  I'd have never thought of that if I hadn't seen it myself.

I'd also say that these things are so sturdily built, often adjustments that would be obvious and move quickly on less expensive instruments can take longer on an Alembic to settle out.  They generally really are adjust it today, but check it again tomorrow type axes.  Both of mine I simply had to live with them for a while before they would reveal all their secrets.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2023, 06:32:05 PM by bigredbass »

lbpesq

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2023, 09:32:19 PM »
My Custom Further had a dead straight neck.   I brought it up to the Mothership (I live an hour south) and they did a heat bend.  No issues since.   Just before the Pandemic, I restored a Rickenbacker 330 that had been in a fire.  Talk about Roasted Maple!   I replaced the two truss rods, but the neck was a little convex.   I used clamps to put pressure on it to move in the other direction, wrapped it up in a heating pad, and left it for 3 or 4 days.  Worked like a charm.    Some people around here have had success with placing a hardcover book under the strings, tightening the strings, and leaving it for a few days.

Bill, tgo


Hexman

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2023, 07:23:45 AM »
Thanks for all the advice, really helpful. I've measured the strings with a vernier and they're actually 40-95 so I'm going to change them for 45-105 and see if that sorts the issue. Do people think the neck will have come like this from the factory, i.e dead straight or is it a problem that has developed over time.

Cheers, Mike

Songdog

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2023, 08:24:57 AM »
Ed of H suggested humidifying it, I'd add to be sure the fingerboard is oiled.
Note - he suggested dehumidifying it to increase relief.

My Alembic (as well as one of my other basses) is fairly sensitive to humidity. When I bought it, it was set up with fairly high action and relief. It went from a cool, dry, climate-controlled store to my open-windows home in a spell of warm, humid weather and the neck promptly back-bowed. A quick truss rod adjustment fixed that. When summer changed to fall and the heat went on, it dried out and developed more relief, again easily adjusted.

My take on this is that the unfinished ebony fretboard gains moisture and expands in humid conditions, or dries out and contracts in low humidity, while the finished maple of the neck doesn't change as much. Perhaps some of the experts here (Ed of H, you listening?) can say more about this.

My Alembic can be adjusted very close to perfection, so small changes are much more noticeable. This effect of humidity seems to be smaller after multiple lemon oil treatments, the fretboard was really thirsty when I got it.

Also, 40-95 is a pretty light gauge. I'm currently trying out Ernie Ball cobalt flatwounds 40-95 on another bass, relief dropped from about .012" to .007-.008" as a result (but it set up and played really well that way). Switching to 45-105 will probably make a big difference.

And this reminds me - the season is changing again, and it's time to check relief and tweak the truss rods on a couple of my basses before upcoming gigs  ;)

edwardofhuncote

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2023, 09:30:50 AM »
I'm following... and yeah, in my particular case the drier it is the more relief is created in this particular bass. It isn't an Alembic, but a couple of my Alembics respond in the same way. My Custom fretless is the newest, and it seems to be the most willing to move around. My Persuader 5-string never, ever moves. I had a Distillate 4-string that was the most stable neck I ever saw. I adjusted those rods once the whole time I had that bass. I think I've adjusted my Persuader three times now, in 9 years, each time after string changes and the resulting differences in tension affected the action. My Custom though, she needs a little tweak now and again, even though it's wearing the same floppy TI Jazz Flats.


It's just that some wood is that way. I think over time it settles down. Somewhere on here Mica said something like it still thought it was a tree, hadn't learned to be a guitar neck yet.




BeenDown139

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2023, 10:36:07 AM »
following this thread. a little late to hte party but i was otherwise occupied.

got the wettest spring in decades going on in the mile high this year.  the truss rod covers came off in april and probably won't go back on until july at this rate.

i currently own 4 alembics - 2 fretted, 2 not so much.  i have an unscientific way set relief:  bring bass up to pitch.  set the tail on the floor, sight down the neck, do what i gotta do get the neck edge to parallel the string.
same way with action: get it close on the kitchen table, set the bridge (and/or nut sometimes) until the action's as low as i cn get it without fret buzz or fingerboard rattle.  i gave up on measuring a coupla years ago.  it may not be according to hoyle, but all my basses play low and fast.

that being said, i have to loosen the truss rod nuts to barely finger tight when the air here dries out on my '18 MK deluxe 5 string.  the essence fretless 5 goes completely bonkers when the weather changes, i've seen about 1/4" of backbow happen overnight when the weather changes around here.

whenever i have to deal with bending a neck a significant amount, i place the neck over my knee at the 12th fret position.  loosen the strings.  if i'm tightening truss rods, i do the tweaks, put the bass fingerboard up over my knee.  one hand on the fingerboard below the nut, the other on the bridge and gently apply pressure to help the neck go the direction i want.  do this fingerboard down to get relief.  do not press on the headstock.  for difficult cases, this may take a few iterations.

so after all that bloviation, maybe try bending the neck gently forward, leave the strings off overnight, try again in the morning.  try raising the nut a little if you can't get the fret rattle out.

that's all i got.  time to get baked again, sit in the hot tub and watch the rain :-)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2023, 10:39:02 AM by BeenDown139 »
Been down...now i'm out!

hammer

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2023, 04:16:41 PM »
Don't know whether it makes a difference but while I've had to adjust the necks on all my other Alembics a few times, my Signature Custom that has an ebony stringer has not been adjusted since it arrived from the mothership 10-years ago. Now I do keep the humidity in my house well controlled (at least partially because of allergies to any type of pollen) and have the option of using a house humidifier or dehumidifier so both the temp and the humidity are stable.  I've also always used the same strings (TI flats) on it.  However, while that seems to work for the Signature Custom my other Alembics (which are my "playing out" tools have always needed a 1/4 turn or so when we go from 90 degrees and humid as it is today to -20 below F in January.

pauldo

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Re: Truss Rod issue
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2023, 06:03:30 AM »
Dang - after nearly 4 decades of ownership I have never adjusted my Distillate's truss rod.  Live in Wisconsin, humid in summer, dry in winter.   House is 'somewhat' controlled.   I remember once recognizing a bit of fret buzz, thought about adjusting the truss rods.  I wasn't doing any recording at the time so left it the way it was and she fixed herself.  :-)

Lucky?