Author Topic: Easing up to the drawing board  (Read 4683 times)

Spoilers!

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Easing up to the drawing board
« on: May 26, 2023, 08:23:54 PM »
I've just about reached the point that "a custom build would be nice some day" is giving way to "what would that custom build be?".  I'm posting in hopes of getting feedback on some of my initial thoughts.

By way of background, I had 35+ years playing 34" scale and slowly gravitated toward fretless.  When I got my first Alembic (an '83 Spoiler) in 2019 I became an instant convert to 32" scale.  In 2021 I found a fretless '82 Spoiler and it's been true love ever since.  The weight isn't bad (under 9 lbs) and the bass plays effortlessly.  I rotate through all of my Alembics and few other favorites, but I'm always coming back to the fretless Spoiler.

So why the thoughts of a custom build?  I've been dealing with nerve compression in my left shoulder on and off for years, and when that is happening the fingers on my left hand can get a bit uncooperative.  It's much more of a problem on fretless compared to fretted, as my intonation and speed go downhill fast.  What I'm hoping to achieve with the custom build is a bass with the same basic feel as my '82 Spoiler, but with less weight on my shoulder and less of a reach out to where the first fret would be.

My Alembic experience so far is limited to Spoilers, a Distillate and an SC Sig.  Looking only at how they feel (not sound or appearance), the Spoilers are probably the most optimal for me.  I absolutely love the Distillate, but I feel that larger body in my shoulder.  The reach out to the first fret on the Distillate is the best out of the three models for me, which I chalk up to the bridge being way back against the end of the body.  The SC is a mixed bag - the weight is good, the shorter scale helps with fingering when my shoulder is acting up, but the strap button at the neck heel and the bridge location make the reach seem as long - if not longer than on the Spoilers.  It is also the only one that I really notice neck dive on.  Ironically, my preferences for appearance go in the exact opposite order: I love the small standard body with a crown headstock, and somewhat prefer the look of the Distillate over the Spoiler.

In terms of the potential custom build, I'm intrigued by the idea of a 3/4 Spoiler with a short scale neck.  I haven't had a chance to play one, and I'm not holding my breath that it will happen soon.  I have seen photos of one or two, and it looks like the bridge sits way back like the Distillate's.  I'm thinking that would give me the optimal reach out to the nut, due to the overall body-plus-neck length and also having the strap button on the upper horn (compared to where it is on a small standard body).  It seems like that would also be reasonably likely to avoid neck dive.

Just looking at those aspects for now, I'd love to hear any thoughts or ideas you guys have.  Any firsthand perspectives on playing a 3/4 Spoiler would also be very much appreciated!

I should also mention that I'm mostly a fan of the older body styles.  I can appreciate the look and functionality of an Essence or a Balance K, but appearance-wise they aren't really my thing.  I'm not ruling a modern body style out at this point, but I'll probably only go there after ruling out the old school options.

Thanks,

Ken

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2023, 03:30:45 PM »
Hopefully I'm not violating any protocol by bumping my own post here, but I'm moving toward a custom build and I'm wondering if anybody has experience with a 3/4 Spoiler body ("R" in the serial number).  My goal for the build would be to have a similar feel to my '82 Spoiler fretless, but with less weight and and a shorter reach to the nut.

Obviously with a 3/4 body there would be a weight reduction compared to a regular Spoiler, and the one photo I've seen looked like there would be less of a reach to the nut compared to most other body styles.  Has anybody here played one?  If so, any thoughts on balance or ergonomics?

Thanks,

Ken

sonicus

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2023, 05:01:12 PM »
 If you are considering medium scale or longer, I would consider the balance/neck dive equation as an inquiry from what Alembic Inc. has discovered as a result of their extensive collective experience with the variable factors of such a custom build proposal :) .
« Last Edit: June 06, 2023, 05:06:17 PM by sonicus »

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2023, 05:48:03 PM »
Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm looking at a short scale (30.75") build.  The one short scale Alembic I've tried was a Stanley Clarke Signature, but the strap geometry and balance didn't work for me.  I think I need the strap button on the upper horn.

I'm pretty big through the chest and shoulders, so I suspect the SC hangs a bit differently on me than on most folks.  My Spoiler sits just about perfectly.  I'm just heading in a direction where I'll probably need something lighter and with a shorter reach in the next couple of years.

Ken

hammer

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2023, 06:09:53 PM »
Here’s a photo of a custom signature with a 3/4 body that Alembic made for me 10 years ago. The Signature electronics do have something to be said for and at medium scale it balances nicely with the medium scale neck which is the fastest and most comfortable I’ve ever played. The tummy carve took a little of the weight off and the 3/4 body did the rest. Extremely comfortable to play with little neck dive

rv_bass

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2023, 06:38:38 PM »
How about a short scale Darling bass?  That is smaller than a Spoiler (I think), should balance well with the longer upper horn, and would have a short reach to the nut.

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2023, 07:27:19 PM »
Here’s a photo of a custom signature with a 3/4 body that Alembic made for me 10 years ago. The Signature electronics do have something to be said for and at medium scale it balances nicely with the medium scale neck which is the fastest and most comfortable I’ve ever played. The tummy carve took a little of the weight off and the 3/4 body did the rest. Extremely comfortable to play with little neck dive

Oh man, that's a gorgeous bass!  Is the top superb walnut?

Out of curiosity, how does the bass hang with the offset strap button compared to one centered on the neck?  I'm talking about the one down by the heart carve.

Thanks,

Ken

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2023, 07:32:13 PM »
How about a short scale Darling bass?  That is smaller than a Spoiler (I think), should balance well with the longer upper horn, and would have a short reach to the nut.

Thanks for the suggestion Rob.  The thought of a Darling has crossed my mind a couple of times.  If I remember correctly, the photo or two that I've seen of short scale Darlings checked the box for having the tailpiece way down toward the end of the body.  Time to do some more browsing!

For what it's worth, I've also pondered the shape of your custom guitar.

Ken

edwardofhuncote

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2023, 08:08:35 AM »
Adriaan posted this take on a Darling short(er)-scale bass VI on a different thread.


http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_crossroads.html

Very adaptable.

I think there are a lot of ways to get where you want to, and still stay with the older patterns. It's just easier with the newer, more ergonomic ones. Mica and Susan know what works and doesn't, and to what degree... how much off-balance you can tolerate, and weight constraints are choices when doing a Custom, but just a couple of a couple hundred.

I went that road, and loved every minute... my Custom fretless 5-string was an amalgamation of the 20th Anniversary Omega pattern and some 1970's curves, with a 3+2 Elan headstock, a combination of old and new. The 20th Anniversary Omega was a compromise - a little bit bigger than a 3/4, a little bit smaller than a Standard Series. Then mine was to be a 5-string... which added just a smidge... but when the template was made, they smoothed out those curves to perfection. The Omega-cut; no two were alike. I sent pictures of about 10, and they nailed it.

Like you, I was an instant convert to medium-scale, from my first Alembic, a Persuader 5-string, so my Custom was built as a fretless companion to it. It balances about the same; both are biased heavy neck, but not to a degree that it's a problem for me. Contrast that with my fretless Hyak, a long-scale on a very small body. That scroll-body thing is uber-cool, but is an absolute bullfight with gravity. There's just but so much you can do with a design like that.

Now, have you thought about electronics yet? Because if you're staying with a fretless, there isn't any better (in my opinion) than East-Meets-West, which adds a rotary bass and treble boost/cut to the classic lowpass filter/Q-switch circuit of your Spoiler. Add the new pan preamp so you can better balance the pickups, put an AXY Fatboy at the bridge, and you're set.

Have fun at that drawing board!

« Last Edit: June 11, 2023, 08:11:27 AM by edwardofhuncote »

chrisalembic

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2023, 10:41:41 AM »
Hi Ken,
my very first Alembic was a short scale Spoiler with a smaller, 3/4 body. From what I know quite a few of these were made for the Japanese market in the 80s/90s. I bought it second hand in Japan and it was a very beautiful bass. It felt quite a bit more compact than the medium scale Spoiler I later owned.
If I were to order a short scale Alembic today it would probably be a Darling with these "old school carved" horns you can see in the picture attached. I think it really combines old school Alembic with the more modern, ergonomic designs. So beautiful!

pauldo

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2023, 12:29:14 PM »
The Darling styling is very, very nice.

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2023, 06:36:50 PM »
Hi Ken,
my very first Alembic was a short scale Spoiler with a smaller, 3/4 body. From what I know quite a few of these were made for the Japanese market in the 80s/90s. I bought it second hand in Japan and it was a very beautiful bass. It felt quite a bit more compact than the medium scale Spoiler I later owned.
If I were to order a short scale Alembic today it would probably be a Darling with these "old school carved" horns you can see in the picture attached. I think it really combines old school Alembic with the more modern, ergonomic designs. So beautiful!

There is some serious love around here for Darlings!  I totally get the appeal.  This custom build would be intended to replicate as much of my '82 Spoiler as I can, but with lower weight and an even shorter reach to the nut.  If I ever head in the direction of something more modern, a short scale Darling will be near the top of my wish list.  Interestingly, the couple that I've been able to find with accurate weights given have been over a pound heavier than either of my Spoilers (which could be chalked up to maple vs. koa for the bodies).

I'm glad to hear you say your 3/4 Spoiler felt more compact, as I think that's in line with what I'm hoping to achieve.  Was the balance similar between your 3/4 short scale and your medium scale?  Does anything stand out in your memory as being significantly different between them (other than the more compact feel)?

Thanks,

Ken


hammer

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2023, 07:26:23 PM »
I don’t know about the experiences of others but my 3/4 Signature medium scale custom (top and back are crotch walnut) hangs at about 1:30 to 2:00. I can hang it a lot lower and in a more traditional position than my short scale SC body basses. With those, it’s a much higher position with the body tucked under the right arm.  Totally different than my Signature. I don’t have any experience with a Darling body but while it is a short scale, the body shape would suggest to me that it would balance differently than an SC.

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2023, 07:28:45 PM »
Adriaan posted this take on a Darling short(er)-scale bass VI on a different thread.


http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_crossroads.html

Very adaptable.

I think there are a lot of ways to get where you want to, and still stay with the older patterns. It's just easier with the newer, more ergonomic ones. Mica and Susan know what works and doesn't, and to what degree... how much off-balance you can tolerate, and weight constraints are choices when doing a Custom, but just a couple of a couple hundred.

I went that road, and loved every minute... my Custom fretless 5-string was an amalgamation of the 20th Anniversary Omega pattern and some 1970's curves, with a 3+2 Elan headstock, a combination of old and new. The 20th Anniversary Omega was a compromise - a little bit bigger than a 3/4, a little bit smaller than a Standard Series. Then mine was to be a 5-string... which added just a smidge... but when the template was made, they smoothed out those curves to perfection. The Omega-cut; no two were alike. I sent pictures of about 10, and they nailed it.

Like you, I was an instant convert to medium-scale, from my first Alembic, a Persuader 5-string, so my Custom was built as a fretless companion to it. It balances about the same; both are biased heavy neck, but not to a degree that it's a problem for me. Contrast that with my fretless Hyak, a long-scale on a very small body. That scroll-body thing is uber-cool, but is an absolute bullfight with gravity. There's just but so much you can do with a design like that.

Now, have you thought about electronics yet? Because if you're staying with a fretless, there isn't any better (in my opinion) than East-Meets-West, which adds a rotary bass and treble boost/cut to the classic lowpass filter/Q-switch circuit of your Spoiler. Add the new pan preamp so you can better balance the pickups, put an AXY Fatboy at the bridge, and you're set.

Have fun at that drawing board!


Hi Greg,

Thanks for the detailed descriptions and the eye candy!

I've been thinking a lot about balance.  I touched on some of that in my original post, but since then I've actually come to a different opinion on my SC Signature.  I had set it up as a tenor a couple of months ago, and decided a couple of weeks ago to throw the previous set of Optima flats back on just to run through some songs and remember how that short scale neck felt.  I set it up as close to my fretless Spoiler as I could get (1.5 mm at the 12th fret with just a hint of relief, compared to 1.5 mm and dead straight for the Spoiler).  I also ditched the padded leather strap I've been using for one with a fleece backing and swapped the strap locks for standard buttons, and the neck heaviness became totally manageable.  It may sound odd, but I think the strap buttons did have something to do with the improvement.

Anyway, that confirmed for me that even the shorter distance between strap buttons on the small standard body will work in terms of balance with the right strap.  Unless I'm really missing something, that the longer distance with a 3/4 Spoiler body should give an even better balance.

I haven't settled on anything yet in terms of electronics.  For a little while I was toying with the idea of single AXY Persuader setup, with an added Q switch.  That was mostly to shave a tiny amount of weight, but I know that realistically I should be looking at something more versatile - although I must admit that while my Persuader basically does one thing, it does it exceptionally well.

I love the bass boost switch on my Distillate, so I also thought about Rogue/Europa electronics for a while.  The bass switch is rarely off when I play the Distillate, but I think the reason I rely on it so much is that it brings me close to the warmth of the Spoilers' neck pickup location and the koa bodies.

Right now I'm leaning toward either Special or Anniversary electronics.  I have really liked the extra definition I get from dialing in the SC's bridge pickup.  For what it's worth, on all of my Alembics I set the filters about 25% of the way open and almost always have the Q switches on.  I play about 99% finger style and like to have a strong fundamental.  Regardless of the controls, one thing that's definitely in the plan is having the neck pickup right up by the neck to bring out the low end, like on the earliest Spoilers.

And just as I go to click "post", the light flickers on over my head.  East-Meets-West is like a Distillate, Rogue or Europa, except that you can dial in as much cut or boost as you want instead of a single preset value - correct?  I could see that working very nicely.

I figured that I'll mull over the electronics a bit more after I've sorted out the body shape and the body/neck wood recipe.

Ken

Spoilers!

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Re: Easing up to the drawing board
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2023, 07:43:56 PM »
I don’t know about the experiences of others but my 3/4 Signature medium scale custom (top and back are crotch walnut) hangs at about 1:30 to 2:00. I can hang it a lot lower and in a more traditional position than my short scale SC body basses. With those, it’s a much higher position with the body tucked under the right arm.  Totally different than my Signature. I don’t have any experience with a Darling body but while it is a short scale, the body shape would suggest to me that it would balance differently than an SC.

Since I switched out the strap buttons I've been using the same strap for the SC as I use for the Spoiler.  I have it set for the shortest possible length (it's a center pad with adjustable tails from the front and back).  The SC sits up very high just like you described.  I guess the Spoiler is a couple of inches lower overall due to having the strap button on the upper horn, but it also hangs about 2:00 or 2:30.

Just for fun I grabbed an old G&L SB-1 off the wall and put a capo at the second fret to get a 30.75" scale.  This bass has a body that's noticeably narrower than something like a P or J, but with a similar upper horn length.  It also has the bridge right at the end of the body like I'm planning on the custom.  That geometry created a whole different balance and feel.  I imagine that's about how a short scale Essence would be.  Distinctly not like the Spoiler, but probably something I would grow to love over time.

Ken