Author Topic: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?  (Read 351 times)

flavofive

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« on: March 08, 2023, 11:13:27 AM »
Hi all - A rare option that Alembic has done for Series 1 (or 2) electronics is mellow filters, sometimes spelled "mello filters".  There is more information in this thread, but in short, they change the slope of the low-pass filters from the normal 12 dB/octave to only 3 dB/octave, i.e. a less pronounced, "mellower" sound.
As mentioned in the thread, Mica had confirmed that they are specifically for guitars.  There are multiple examples of guitars with this option here in the Club, but it seems like it was still somewhat rare, and perhaps most common in the late 70s.  I'm aware of one bass that had this option, but it was a "shop night" bass, not an official Alembic.

I now own a 1980 Series 1 guitar and 1977 S1 bass, and I have been modeling the Alembic Series circuit in circuit analysis software - I figured it would be important to know the full circuit in case I ever need to repair/replace a part.  Unfortunately neither instrument has the mellow filters, but as an electrical engineer, I'm curious how they work.  Does anyone actually have an instrument that has these?  Would you possibly be willing to post a photo of the cavity (or schematic), or PM me?
Many thanks!

edwardofhuncote

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2023, 09:56:52 AM »
I don't know if a picture of the earlier electronics exists, but I believe the John 'Marmaduke' Dawson guitar had these mellow filters. https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=26299.0 Perhaps someone else can comment affirmatively.


Just from what I have read, these would have been extremely beneficial to my ear while I was the caretaker of #78-1116... engaging the Q-switch on either channel of that guitar was just a tear-your-face-off effect. Of course, that's coming from a bass player...

JimmyJ

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1727
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2023, 02:18:39 PM »
Mike,

It's unclear to me what you're trying to do with your modeling and circuit analysis software.  The tone control circuitry in the Series instruments is unusual because of its Q-boost option, but I think the 12db/octave slope of the LP filter is quite common in audio and musical applications. My guess is that making it 3db/octave only involves changing a couple components but you can imagine the much flatter slope.  If the corner was 1khz then instead of -12db at 2khz you'd only be -3.  At 4khz -24 vs -6.  Etc...  3db/octave is a very gentle slope sonically. Sorry I don't know enough to say which components would be changed to what. 

I will say though that you are unlikely to EVER need to repair/replace any parts in your Alembic instruments.  These things are built like tanks and made to last. 

Jimmy J

flavofive

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2023, 04:15:50 PM »
Thanks Edward!  Yep, I wish was a photo of the electronics cavity, especially for these "special" non-typical Alembics.  To me, that's the coolest part of Alembics - I know, I'm that kind of nerd!  But I like to think Ron Wickersham would understand.   ;)    I actually think that the design of the Alembic circuitry (like literally the schematic) is twice as impressive as any of the woodwork, and that's really saying something.

Jimmy, thanks for the notes!  Partly I'm genuinely curious, e.g. what type of filter(s) it has, what the specific range of corner frequencies are for the tone controls, etc.  In a practical sense, this can be helpful with understanding how to set downstream parametric EQs, avoid room resonances, and so on.  It's pretty cool (to me at least...) to build up the circuit and then actually see what it's really doing - for example, here's a Series 1 frequency sweep with the Q switch full-on:




So partly I'm just interested to know what what the mellow filters actually do to the graph above, for example.
I know it's probably a long shot - they are pretty darn rare!  If no one has one, no worries.

As to practical (maintenance) reasons for understanding the circuit:  That's definitely encouraging to hear about the robustness of the parts!  Fingers crossed that they're never an issue for me.  In the back of my mind, that mine are still 43- and 46-year-old instruments respectively, with literally something around 20x the components of, say, a P-bass (no exaggeration).  If a solder joint breaks, an opamp or transistor stops working, for example, it's a pretty simple repair, and I may not have the luxury of making-do without the instrument for the amount of time that Alembic themselves might need to repair it.  And I actually trust my own soldering skills more than most guitar shops.  The Alembic warranty periods are LONG over at this point anyway, ha.

hammer

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3296
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2023, 05:46:09 PM »
I have the shop night series 1 bass to which you are referring. From an electronics standpoint I’m not sure how they do it but they do add a somewhat mellower/mellowish sound to the bass. It’s not the guitar circuit you were looking for but I can post a photo of the electronics cavity if it will help you out.


PS The fact that this bass is a shopnight special in no way detracts from its brilliance. It’s currently my favorite bass to play (in a sitting position since the battery cavity was filled with lead to correct a balance problem. Problem solved but it’s heavier than any other bass I have by a long shot).

edwardofhuncote

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2023, 06:33:09 PM »
Ha! I was just thinking earlier today... is that Brian's shopnight Scroll bass with those mellow filters??? I know there's one out there...

rv_bass

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4382
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2023, 06:43:40 PM »
If you search mellow filters here on the club there have been a bunch of discussions about it, some of the threads have photos of the various instruments that had/have them.

flavofive

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2023, 07:01:59 PM »
Hi Brian - awesome!  Man, that bass is definitely amazing.  You're a lucky guy.  The "shop night" instruments are really some of the coolest "Alembics", since they take the basic formula but adapt it in unique, one-off ways.
(Looks like the link to it in my earlier post broke somehow; it's this one.)

Absolutely, if you wouldn't mind taking a photo of the back of the mellow filter switches, and any wiring going to/from them, that would be terrific.  I know that the original thread included a photo of the control cavity, but the circuit board covers up the switches.  If it's possible to (gently!) pull out the card and take a photo, that should give a good view of them.
Hard to say for sure, but my best guess is that they are the same on basses and guitars, since the baseline Series I/II electronics themselves appear to be identical on Alembic basses and guitars.
If I can manage to figure out how the components work with the circuitry, I'd be happy to post the frequency response results for posterity, if anyone's interested.
Very much appreciated!

rv, that's true, thanks for the suggestion.  I've done a pretty exhaustive search of every thread on the Club, plus Google searches.  There are lots of photos of the instruments themselves, but I can't find a single one that clearly shows the switches.  This one is the closest - they're shown, but all the wires are cut!  ::)

garyhead

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 562
  • Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing!
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2023, 07:31:54 PM »
 8)
Where are we going...and why am I in this Handbasket?

801662 - LEVIATHAN Series 1 4+6 Doubleneck
94K8781  Essence 6
01OW12582  Orion 6 fretless (Rouge Electronics)
04SY13333  Spyder 4 V headstock (#25)
02SY12927  Spyder 8 (#02)
96CB9610  Classico Deluxe 6 (The only 1)
F-1X, F-2B, SF-2, M1, M2 ELF

flavofive

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2023, 08:08:31 PM »
 ;D

JimmyJ

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1727
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2023, 08:20:38 PM »
Being an EE you certainly know more about this than I do!  It's the "slope" that changes right?  So using your cool graphic above, I've drawn on what I think I see as the 12db per octave drop in level comparing 400hz to the octave above 800hz.  If it were only a 3db per octave slope then the righthand downward line would simply be shallower - as per my 2nd rough scribbling.  More treble sound would get through the filter.

Am I close? 

All interesting!  I guess I'd be more into it if I actually moved the filters on my basses.  HA!  A wee bit of Q-boost at the top of the bridge pickup's highest frequency and I'm good.  8)

Jimmy J

flavofive

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2023, 10:48:09 AM »
Hi Jimmy, you're exactly right!
This actually gets into the main reason why I'm so curious about the mellow filters.  To illustrate - the famous Moog Minimoog synthesizer low-pass filter is an example of a "4-pole" filter, which inherently gives it a 24 dB/octave slope.  i.e. relatively "steep".  Here's an example of a 24 dB/octave filter, NOT specifically Moog or Alembic, but I added a few labels to illustrate how it would relate to the Alembic Q switch function if it were:


(The "tone" knob just sweeps the whole thing right/left.)


And then here is a "2-pole" low-pass filter, which inherently has a 12 dB/octave slope.  Alembic Series I/II filters are this type, as are many others - e.g. the Korg MS-20 synthesizer.  Same image as above, but now 12 dB/octave - note the shallower slope on the right:



But this is where it gets interesting.  Using analog components, the shallowest type of these typical filters that you can build is a "1-pole" type, which inherently has a 6 dB/octave slope.  This would be like a typical passive tone control on the vast majority of electric guitars/basses out there - think Fender, Gibson, etc.

But the 3 dB/octave rolloff that the mellow filters apparently achieve would be basically a "1/2-pole" filter.  Thing is, there really isn't such a thing as "half" a pole. You could probably get 3 dB/octave by combining multiple filters (or going digital), but I suspect the mellow switches aren't doing something this complicated.
For reference, here is my rough sketch of what I think a 3 dB/octave filter would look like - i.e. what the mellow filters would do to the regular Series I/II filters if it really does achieve this slope.  Note how shallow the rolloff is, which would indeed reduce the "sharp" sound of the regular filters:



Hence, this is a mystery that I'm really curious to solve.  All I can think of is that:

- 1) Alembic may have just been roughly estimating the 3 dB/octave slope, and it's truly 6 dB/octave in reality (i.e. 1-pole).  Which would still be cool!

- OR 2) It really does achieve this extra-shallow 3 dB/octave slope by some elegant means.  If so, I'd really like to know how - I've built typical low-pass filters before, and I'd love to do a side-by-side comparison with the 3 dB version to see how it changes the sound.

- OR 3) They're magic.  Hey, you never know...  ;D


* (BTW, just to be clear - this is purely a hobby.  I am absolutely not using any of this for commercial gains by selling copies of Alembic electronics or anything.  I'm not Boogieman, I'm not associated with any commercial manufacturers, etc.  I mentioned I'm an electrical engineer, but my career actually went into designing buildings rather than circuits.  Audio electronics is just for fun  :) )
« Last Edit: March 10, 2023, 12:02:40 PM by flavofive »

KR

  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2023, 11:18:02 AM »
I like what's going on with the mellow filters; keeps the highs somewhat intact if that's needed. For me, a great setup would be having my 3-position filter q switch with stock filter and boosts at 6db and 9db for the first two positions, with 6db mellow filter for position three of the switch.

JimmyJ

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1727
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2023, 12:20:22 PM »
Mike,

Thanks for taking the time to put together that very interesting post.  I'm always learning things in here!  I think answer #3 is closest to the truth because Ron Wickersham is indeed a Wizard.  No doubt about that. 

Here's something I found on the Interwebs...  A passive design for a 3dB/Octave LP filter...  Again, this is WAY beyond my self-taught knowledge of circuitry but I thought you might find it interesting.  Here's the copy followed by the picture (a slightly fuzzy rendering, kinda like my understanding! :D ):

"What is required to produce pink noise from a white noise source is simply a -3dB/octave filter. If capactive reactance varies at a rate of -6dB/octave then how can a slope of less than -6dB/octave be achieved? The answer is by cascading several stages of lag compensation such that the zeros of one stage partially cancel the poles of the next stage, etc. Such a network is shown as Figure 2.17.5 and exhibits a -3dB/octave characteristic (+/- 1/4dB) from 10 Hz to 40 kHz."

Jimmy J

 

flavofive

  • club
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 118
Re: Mellow Filters - Does anyone own an instrument with them?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2023, 09:48:56 AM »
Hi Jimmy,

Good find, thanks!  That is a good point - I've seen that referred to as a "pinking filter", because (as the quote you referenced notes) it can be used to convert white noise to pink noise.  It's actually multiple simple filters grouped together in sequence, which is the only non-digital way I am aware of to make a 3 db/octave slope.  There might be another that I'm not aware of, but this seems to be the most common/simplest.

I kind of wrote off the "multiple filters" possibility off for the Alembic mellow filters because conceptually it seemed too complicated to integrate into the Series electronics, but I hadn't thought of this "pinking filter" in particular until you mentioned it.  How it would fit into the Series might be a bit too complex for me (college was a long time ago...  :D ), but maybe it is something like this!  Or at least conceptually similar.  It's only a small number of passive components (resistors and capacitors); it could easily fit in a small space.

Good lead!!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2023, 09:51:29 AM by flavofive »