Author Topic: Odd Gain level?  (Read 482 times)

jazzyvee

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Odd Gain level?
« on: March 02, 2023, 03:55:58 AM »
Yesterday I took my Orion bass to a gig using the same rack that I always use for non series bass gigs. F-1x -> SF-2 into Synq Power amp.
The sound from my cab was fine, the sound in the FOH fed via my F-1x DI, pre or post was fine from where I was standing on stage. 


However from the in-ear monitor system, the bass was overloading on the bass channel even with my bass's volume and F-1x gain set really low, like barely moved off closed. I put in a new battery in case there was any fading of voltage and there was no change to the situation, in fact it made it worse.  On the mixer the level from the bass was really low but still distorted.


We had the same issue at rehearsal on Sunday, so yesterday I used my other F-1X that had been serviced and has a new transformer sent across from Alembic.
 
I know the internal trim pot on the bass arrived to me set high but my rig is not bothered by that and regardless of that setting the volume knob sets the output signal level from the bass anyway.


Any suggestions to why this overdriving is happening. To be honest, most of the band sounded distorted through the IEM mix, but no-one else in the band seems to hear it or be bothered by that. Maybe they have better headphones than me.  ;-)


I'm still trying to be open minded about this IEM decision for the band even though we haven't yet had a gig where the system has just been plug and play on power up.
This was a venue that holds i would say around 300 people and maybe 50 people sitting, and a small stage so i didn't even think we needed to use that stuff.




In the past whenever the signal from my DI has been too hot or not to the liking of the sound guy, i then switch the DI to Pre and that is always fine. 
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

JimmyJ

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2023, 09:00:49 AM »
My main argument in favor of IEMs is that you can save your hearing!  With a great mix it can sound like a record and you can have the levels much lower than the pummeling your ears would otherwise take standing next to the drum kit.  The second big upside is that if you have a loud bass amp onstage, bass in the drum monitors, bass in people's wedges, etc, there are so many sources leaking into all the open microphones at different times (slightly out of phase with each other) that the FOH can end up with a mushy, undefined bass sound.  If most or all of the band is using IEMs then the PA is YOUR AMP and the FOH sound can be much improved. 

The downside is the time it takes to get the balance set the way you want it.  If you're not carrying your own monitor rig and operator it can be a tedious affair trying to get the balance right while everybody else in the band is yelling about the same thing. 

So Jazzy, it's a long chain from your bass to your ears so it's a process of elimination to find what's clipping.  Try starting at the other end: what IEMs have you got, how many internal drivers?  How do they sound when listening to another source like your phone / computer / cassette player?  Can you get plenty of volume with a clean result?  How loud are you driving them when you play with the band?  Is it possible you are simply running them too loud in that situation and overloading them?  It takes some getting used to having the levels lower in a live situation because from the very first time we play with others, volume can equal excitement.  Bring a good set of headphones or generic earbuds to rehearsal, plug into the pack and see if it's loud and clear.

Next, is it a wireless belt-pack?  How's the battery in that? 

Then, is the transmitter for your belt-pack clipping?  Check for input/output level indicators on that device.

You say the levels at FOH and monitor board look ok, but ask somebody to listen to your sound at those points to be sure what you're sending is clean.

As you know, our onboard volume controls do not change the tone of our basses, only the level.  So you should be able to set the output level of the Orion to whatever your rig wants to see for a good result.  (I actually have two marks on my master volume control for different situations...)

I'll also say that while I'm in favor of IEMs in some situations they just aren't practical.  If you're playing a club or small venue with a house sound crew and don't have time to get them dialed in then it can be really tough.  But in a huge venue with your own crew they can really be great for the players, singers, and the overall sound to the audience.  On my road gig most of the band are now on IEMs but some just can't make the move.  It took the guitarist years but he finally made the switch and now loves it - speaker in a box with a mic so no sound onstage.  The drummer still uses wedges (plus a sub, plus a throne "kicker").  And they rarely work for horn players because the insides of their heads vibrate too much (that might explain a few things about these guys!) so they're are still on wedges.  Sometimes the percussionists go with wedges because it's hard to tell what sounds they're making into their many mics...  But I do love my IEMs, as do the singers and our sound crew!

You'll figure it out!
Jimmy J

jazzyvee

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2023, 03:05:30 AM »
We had another rehearsal with the gear last night and in the intervening period, I have been using my IEM earplugs  for listening to music on my ipod and for practice sessions at home with my Stanley Clarke Acoustic preamp along with set of sennhieser headphones for comparisson all was good at home.

However at rehearsal again the situation was not good I had the trim pots in the bass about 75%, the volume on the bass was set really low maybe 1/4 or less, the input gain on the acoustic preamp which feeds the di was again just marginally above off. I tried different combinations of bass volume, preamp gain and IEM body pack volume and there is still this edgy distortion. Plug the same headphones/earplugs into the acoustic preamp and the sound is as clear as a whistle.
So far I have tried a filter and non filter alembic bass and it's the same with both.
Yesterday everyone could hear the same distortion as I have been hearing, but it doesn't bother them. But to me it is a distraction and not the way I want to hear my bass. Feels a bit like someone sticking a
 noisy exhaust on a Rolls Royce.
.
I'm a bit reluctant to splash out on a more expensive set of IEM's with more drivers and still find the issue is not at my end of the DI cable. The system the band is using is one the Behringer X32 Rack with some kind of patchbay if anyone has any experience with it.
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
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JimmyJ

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2023, 08:26:06 AM »
Jazzy,

If you can run your rig at home and get a good loud level in your IEMs with a clean result, then this problem is NOT YOU my friend.  In the opening post of this thread you even said the FOH levels were strong and clean so that definitely points to that Behringer rack unit being used for monitors as the problem.  Trim the input gain on the bass channel "page" until it stops clipping.  This really is not rocket science.  There should be plenty of headroom available on that unit but it needs to be set correctly so it does not clip.  Plugging your Sennhieser headphones to your IEM belt pack would likely expose the same issue - so it's not your IEMs.

What's the DI box?  It may have a "pad" switch which you could also try flipping.  But that should not be necessary, the Behringer unit should be able to handle a hot DI level.  The input gain just needs to be adjusted.

Did I mention INPUT GAIN?

Gotta get the bass to sound GREAT.  Stand your ground on this and insist on getting it dialed in and clean!  You need to be inspired by the bass sound to be able to play your best.

Jimmy J

jazzyvee

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2023, 09:21:53 AM »
Thanks Jimmy.  For the DI i have been using my Stanley Clarke Acoustic Preamp which i generally use at rehearsals and gigs where i can't use my own rig.  However I am planning to take my passive RADIAL PRO DI to the next rehearsal and see how that works out. It does have a pad which think is about 15db. You are right it is really frustrating not hearing the bass as I want to hear it. ( Which is why I like using my bass rig). But i'm open to some new fangled modern stuff as long as it's plug and play.
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

xlrogue6

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2023, 12:42:50 PM »
Anything Music Tribe/Behringer in the signal path is where I'd look first.

jacko

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2023, 03:44:38 AM »
Vince. FWIW I've been using a radial pro DI for years and never had any issues with either FOH or monitoring (though we usually get wedges and I've never tried IEMs).  I have it on my board after the pedals so the engineer gets the sound 'I' want to come out of the PA but it's not affected by anything that's going on Amp-wise. And, Radial do a 'J-clamp' that replaces the DI housing to let you screw the DI to your pedal-board. 

Graeme

jazzyvee

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2023, 06:54:22 AM »
That's good to know Jacko. I will check it out.
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

jazzyvee

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2023, 05:00:48 AM »
GRRRRRRR.. another gig where i'm getting distortion in the IEM. About a month ago we had a couple of rehearsals to sort out the IEM again with a sound engineer. Still getting the distortion but i found a level on my F1-x and SF-2 and the level of my bass that worked at rehearsal without distortion. So used my dymo type machine to print labels of my settings for when using the IEM and stuck them on my F-1x so that I can always use those settings. 
Last night we did a gig, set the rack up as per my distortion free settings and also the volume on my bass. (Which is really low compared to what i would have it set to if using my rig without IEM)
So guess what, still distortion through the IEM system. I set the F-1x volume down to 1 and my bass volume barely off closed.  And even with the gain settings on my channel in the IEM software mixer set really low it was still distorting. So after the gig I spoke to the guy who looks after the IEM system and thinks the issue could be either with the DI on my F-1x or the cables from my DI to the mixer.  For the gig I ended up switching to the DI's pre setting and that gave less distortion overall but still some there on the Low B-string.
Jacko I also use the volume on my separate power amp to control my on stage bass volume so that it doesn't affect the DI. However next time unless we have a rehearsal to get it sorted out, i will add my Radial into the signal chain and use the pad and see if that makes any difference. 



The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

adriaan

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2023, 11:13:04 AM »
Have you tried adding a HPF to your signal path?

JimmyJ

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2023, 12:06:17 PM »
Jazzyvee,

Sorry you find yourself chasing that distortion issue again, that can be a real groove buster!  As I was saying above, this ain't rocket science.  As long as you know that the sound you are sending out of your DI is clean (PA side of the split is good, right??) then you just need to find the point in the monitoring audio chain that is being overdriven.  And that can be anywhere from the splitter (PA/Monitors) to the battery in your in-ear pack or anything in between. 

But I am mostly suspect of that Behringer x32 rig.  It makes no sense for you to be chasing this problem from YOUR end when you know that your signal is clean to the PA.  If you keep turning down your gear to accommodate the IEMs you will eventually lose your sound to the noise floor.

If you set your rig up the way you are used to which you know produces a clean output, the FIRST thing to check is the INPUT GAIN on the Behringer.  Below is how (I think) you do that.  I grabbed this from the manual so let me know if I'm looking at the wrong piece of gear...

Trim down that input gain until your loudest low-b won't hit the meter's red CLIP light.  That's step one.  You also need to look at the routing to be sure there is no additional gain being added anywhere and clipping the sends.  There should also be no FX going on in that unit on your channel, in my opinion; no Lo Cut, Gate, Delay, etc...  Eventually you could do some EQ tweaking there for your IEMs, but flat is the best place to start.

I don't know how your system is set up from there.  Do you have your own satellite mini-mixer for your personal mix or is it all generated from somewhere else?  Are you using a wireless belt pack for your IEMs?  If so, where is the transmitter and can you check that for the correct input levels?

It's not supposed to be this complicated but it often just is.  Hope you can get to the bottom of it - so to speak.

Jimmy J

jazzyvee

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Re: Odd Gain level?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2024, 05:46:35 PM »
Not sure what has happened with theX32 system or what has been changed before the current two gigs. I have not changed anything in my rig and the two big stage festival gigs I had with IEM's this weekend have been fine. No distortion.
I used my Europa bass on those gigs and not the Orion. Just because I have been playing it all week and the issue with distortion has been happening with any of the basses I have taken to gigs or rehearsal so it wouldn't have mattered which bass i brought along. Hopefully this is the end of the saga. We have a couple of smaller club gigs next month so hopefully we will  have some rehearsals and so I can now get my tone sorted out as that is the next hurdle. I have been holding back on getting any custom mould IEM's until i know that a clean sound be extracted for my bass using the X32. So now I can think about getting those done and getting my own body pack hopefully with some form of EQ.


Has anyone got any good views on bass platforms like the Porter & Davis KT series
https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/product-category/kt-platforms/


And the Eich bassboard
https://www.eich-amps.com/bassboard-l


And are they even worth buying?

« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 06:00:57 PM by jazzyvee »
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html