Scale lengths vs. low end

[Michael DeVincenzo (jlpicard)]

I know this has probably been covered somewhere before but I'm curious to hear from members who have Alembics of more than one scale and what effect they personally feel it has on the low end.No Alembic lacks low end but I feel the character is quite different from  say a medium to a long scale. the medium seems to have more in the 100-200hz.range while the long goes just a little lower Anybody?

[Michael Delacerda (dela217)]

Well, I can't speak for the other models, but in comparing long to short Series basses, I don't hear any low end difference.  What I hear is a difference in harmonics, especially with flatwound strings.  As far as how low it reaches I have a couple of short scale basses with so much bottom end it is amazing.  Especially my graphite Series II. I think that my short and medium scale Alembics sound GREAT.  I don't miss the long scale length at all.  

[Valentino Villevieille (valvil)]

I know a lot of folks here love their short & medium scale basses, but I for one, having owned all 3 (long, medium & short scale Alembics) firmly believe that soundwise, you CAN hear a difference, on the E string mostly. It just isn't as deep. I have a Distillate that used to be medium scale which I had converted to a long scale, and once I did that ,  it sounded much better. I do not include in this any bass with ebony neck laminates or graphite necks, since I never played one, & I hear from folks who do own them that the ebony makes up for the shorter scale lenght.  However, i'd like to add this,  back when I had my SC deluxe, I measured with a high-end tuner the intonation on the  E string at every fret. (  I had a luthier friend help to make sure the saddle was in its optimal position)  What I got after countless tries was always pretty much the same: on the E string, tuned to pich in open position, all the notes between F and A were just a bit flat while all the notes after the 15th fret were sharp. And no, no matter where the saddle was placed, there would always be a bunch of notes  that were not properly intonated.  I could always hear those F F# notes being a bit flat and that always bothered me, so I sold the SC, as much as it pained me, because it just did not sound anywhere near as good as my 2 long scales. Although, mind you, it still sounded better than most everything out there. I understand that people love the ease of playing with a shorter scale,  and for a while I felt the same, since I have hands on the small side myself; but then I realized that  the sound isn't worth sacrificing for a a bit of comfort and now 7-8 years later I am totally comfortable with long scale.  
 
My 2 cents
 
Valentino

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

Hmmm..
 
Thanks for the input, Valentino.  You said you owned a medium scale Alembic as well - did it have the same intonation problems?
 
Bryan

[Valentino Villevieille (valvil)]

The intonation on my medium scale was not off as much as the short scale ( much smaller percentage and it affected less notes) but the E string still sounded a bit thin  compared to the long scales.  F & F# on the E still did not sound  quite right to me ( or my bandmates of the time, who always wanted me to use the long scale Alembics), with a bit less edge and faster decay time.  
 
Valentino

[Michael Walker (rockandroller)]

hmmm this is a bit odd - short scale intonation flat on the 1st 5 frets and sharp on from 15th fret and up???
 
medium scale intonation only marginally better?
 
does this mean that guitars, (with their even shorter scale lengths) will have even worse intonation?  
 
doesnt this go against the whole twelfth-root-of two concept??!!
 
I'd hate to think that this applies to ALL Alembics, since i'm planning on buying a short (or possibly medium) scale bass
 
CLARIFICATION FROM ALEMBIC, PLEASE??
 

[David Fung (dfung60)]

Regarding intonation on shorter scale basses... For any scale length, there's an appropriate placement for the frets for proper pitch.
 
But intonation problems are common on shorter scale basses and there's a simple reason for that.  The fret positions are calculated for a theoretically ideal string, but real-world strings don't work quite so well.  Those big fat bass strings are stiff, and that stiffness makes the string act like it's shorter than the scale length.  This is true on any string and any scale length to a varying degree.  If you think about it, that's why the bridge needs to be adjustable for proper intonation -if the string vibrated perfectly, then a fixed bridge at the appropriate position would be fine.  As it is, you basically can lengthen the scale independently for each string to compensate for it's stiffness/inflexibility.
 
All the physical setup affects the intonation - the break angle over the bridge, the pitch you tune to, etc.  String gauge, winding, and core material obviously have a lot of effect as well.  Once you've got it set for the open string, it may or may not be OK at other positions on the neck.
 
I think this is part of the problem with shorter scale basses.  The neck is shorter, but you tune to the same pitch, so tension is different for starters.  If you want a similar sound to a long-scale bass, you might try heavier strings, but there's a good chance they'll be even stiffer.  On shorter scales, my experience has been the strings have been less optimized and you get more of the intonation problems.  There's nothing that prevents that from happening on a long-scale bass, but you have a lot more basses around for the manufacturers to figure out what works and what doesn't and, as a player, you can try different strings more easily to find something that works better.
 
You probably can also improve the intonation by going to lighter or flexier strings and perhaps tuning to a higher pitch so you regain some tension.  But now you're in the territory where the end result isn't going to be like a long-scale bass.
 
I put problem in quotes above because there's no right or wrong sounds.  What you like is good, what you don't like is bad.  But if you want to produce the sounds of a long-scale bass, Alembic or otherwise, it'll be easier on a long-scale bass!
 
David Fung

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

I've heard that many of the intonation problems are actually caused by the simple fact that shorter scale basses have looser string tension, and thus we bend the notes ever so slightly because we're used to playing much harder.
 
Bryan

[Bob Novy (bob)]

Even if you aren't (unintentionally) bending the strings sidewise, I'm convinced there's still a bending problem which gets worse as you move up the neck. When you fret a note down in the first few frets, your finger easily fits between them and the string only has to make a shallow V bend. By the time you get up around frets 15-20, your finger is big enough to fill in the space. So now the string makes a fairly sharp bend over one fret, runs flat across the fingerboard mashed down by your finger, then bends sharply again over the next fret - which ends up making it stretch more than for a lower position note.
 
Back when I was playing guitar, trying to learn jazz and being careful not to bend notes, I started hearing things get progressively sharper as I moved up past the 12th fret or so. Learning to use a lighter, more controlled fretting technique (consistent and just enough to get a clean note without buzzing), took care of this for me. This is another good reason to do your own intonation, because if you use different finger pressure than the person who does it for you, it's not gonna be right.
 
Valentino - I'm not trying to suggest you have less than perfect technique, or fat fingers, or anything like that. I've also never had a fretted bass, so I don't know whether that kind of behavior is still significant, but it seems like it could be, and that you could notice it becoming less so from 32 to 36.
 
David - you're right (you knew that) that both the general stiffness of the string (its design) and the additional problem of stiffness at the ends, possibly aggravated by a large break angle, can make the string behave as if it's shorter than it is, which could make those upper notes sound sharp. Again, I don't know what to say about fretted basses, but my sense is that at least on the scale of a regular guitar, bending would have a more significant effect than stiffness (I might be wrong).
 
I don't have to worry about frets, but I still think about end stiffness a lot, because of how it skews the harmonics. It bothers me a bit that there's so much variation in bridge-tailpiece spacing among different Alembics - they can't all be right. I even had a couple of ideas for an adjustable height tailpiece so I could minimize the break, but shelved that because there were too many other things going on with my custom (both time and money).
 
Oops, none of that really has much to do with the low end sound - but it's still interesting...

[mica]

If the nut is too high, you will use more force by the nut than you do along the length of the board and this change in force can make intonation a nightmare. Skilled players can pull as much as a quarter tone in pitch on purpose, just by how they fret.  
 
As far as revisting the title of this thread, you certainly will hear differences between a short and long scale bass, especially if you use the same amp settings in a A/B testing situation. I've also heard the shocked and horrified reaction of folks when I tell them Stanley Clarke plays a short scale bass. Of course, you won't find most short scale players boosting mids like the long scale players.
 
I am not as sensitive as some to the subtle difference in sound from the scale lengths on Alembics. The decision about scale length has factors to consider. Can I get strings easily? Will it be comfortable?  
 
When I was buying my own Alembic, I almost got a medium scale. I thought it was the perfect size for my hands. I'm sure if I were playing solely for my own enjoyment,  I wouldn't have switched to a long scale. But since I also wanted to be able to compare our basses to other makers, I figured I better get used to the long scale. Of course now, a couple years later, I am totally comfortable with the long scale.

[Hartmut Engel (haddimudd)]

Lesser tension on a short scale bass? More bendable strings? I need to get myself a short scale immediately!!! :-) (Which I planned to do anyways somewhen in the future - now I am even more positive about it)

[Jazzy Vee (jazzyvee)]

Interesting subject, I have to say that having purchased a SC short scale bass recently i have noticed that the intonation on the first 5 frets of the E' string is slightly off pitch. Until i read this article I thought it was my fretting that was maybe pulling on the slightly looser strings. It's not a major amount but it is noticeable if you have a fine ear. I haven't tried adjusting anything on the bass to see if that would help.(do I need to? if so what?)
 
I have previously used and still have long scale basses. But being primarily a guitarist, i find the shortscale bass easier to articulate than the long scale especially since string bending is a big part of my technique.
 
However, if I was going to become a 5 or 6 string bass playing Mother Plucker, then long scale would be what I'd go for.  
 
Size isn't everything you know :-)
Keep on Plucking.......

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

SO... is the consensus that the intonation problem is just a natural part of owning a short scale bass OR is it just finding strings that are designed and set up properly for a short scale bass???
 
Bryan

[Felipe Reis (felipe)]

Hi to everyone. I just got my first Alembic and I think my opinion as a freshman will help this topic.
 
I always wanted an Alembic. I wanted a long scale, but I found this medium scale Series 1 made in 81, and wasn't expensive, so I decided to take it.
 
For my surprise, when I get home, the bass was much bigger than I though. The low end was amazing and I started to think that bass was long scale. I've measure the baby to confirm my suspicius, but the bass was realy a medium scale bass.
 
Conclusion: The medium scale Alembic basses are extraordinary! It combines the excellent sound w/ low end and provides you w/ a great intonation for soloing.  Not mention they're much more confortable to play.
 
I know I can feel confortable in a long scale bass after a couple of years but ...do they have that soloing sound the medium scale have?
 
 
Ain't we funkin now?

[Bob Novy (bob)]

Here's an article some of you may find interesting:
 
http://www.novaxguitars.com/techinfo.html
 
I'm personally not interested in frets at all (let alone fanned), and note that he is *not* talking about intonation problems here, but there is some interesting experimental data on how scale length can affect tone.
 
Still, it won't help you decide what to buy (especially since it's about guitars). There are just so many variables, the only thing that makes sense is to try first, if at all possible.