Short/Medium Scale Basses and Intonation Problems

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

Scattered throughout these threads is some discussion as to whether or not short/medium scale basses have serious intonation problems.  SO, I thought it would be a good idea to tackle the issue in it's own thread.
 
Apparently those who own short/medium scale basses have repeatedly noticed intonation problems all the way up the neck - some can just hear it and others have even used elaborate techniques to measure the problem.
 
Some say this is due to the shorter neck and there's no way around this.  Others suggest that most (if not all) strings are not made properly for the short/medium scale instruments.  Still others have blamed the problem on a high nut, or improper playing technique.
 
SO... will the real problem please stand up?  Has Alembic ever performed any intonation tests on short/medium scale basses?  Has anyone tried a short/medium scale Alembic with strings especially designed for those basses (and did it make any difference)?  Has anyone had intonation problems, and then found a way to correct them?
 
Chime in, folks.  I was seriously considering a move to a short/medium scale Alembic, but have been entirely psyched out because I don't want a bass that has consistantly poor intonation.
 
Bryan

[Wayne McLemore (wayne)]

ALL fretted instruments, be it short, medium, long, XL, six, or twelve string, have inherent intonation problems.  It's called equal temperament tuning.  
 
Try this sometime, play your open D and the F# on the G at the 11th fret at the same time.  Even on a perfectly intonated Alembic you'll be able to hear the beat of an off pitch note.  In my humble, simple understanding, that's because the major third interval is not composed of equal 1/12 increments of the scale.
 
The first time I noticed that, I freaked.  I thought I had a serious flaw in my bass.  Then I realized why I was bending the F# to bring it onto pitch.
 
I played the short scale that's visiting here in Dallas for a weekend at two church gigs and did not notice any significant intonation problems.  By significant I mean anything noticeably worse than I hear on my long scale Alembics.
 
The only way I've found to be on pitch at all times is to play fretless.  But if you do that, you won't necessarily be in tune with any piano or guitar that you may be playing with.  I actually have to tune a few cents sharp to be on pitch with the lower octaves of the piano at our church.  Above middle C on that piano is dead on 440, below middle C it's in the range of 443.
 
Well, that's all my un-scientific real-world experience with intonation problems.  I'm sure I just made the discussion worse.  ;-)
 
C-Ya..............wayne

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

Hey Wayne,
 
Bryan from Austin, here.  Drop me an email at bwt@cox-internet.com.  Since you've had a chance to use it live, I'd like to ask you some questions about the little MG bass at Larry Morgan Music.
 
Thanks brother,
Bryan

[Michael Walker (rockandroller)]

this is a topic near and dear to my heart, too! What is the authoritative answer from the makers???
 
I can't imagine that Stanley Clarke, (who - judging by his upright prowess- must have a rather keen ear) just didnt notice a 'serious intonation problem' on his short-scales.
 
Unless I hear otherwise from Alembic, I will consider this inherent short-scale intonation flaw nothing but a MYTH!!!
 
What's the scoop on this???
 
ENQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW...

[Paul Ellsworth (elzie)]

Hhmmmm, I have a suggestion. Since this question may take time away from people at Alembic who are busy building basses, and this board has a large collective of members, how about someone coming up with a standard set of tests we could all perform on our basses?
 
We could then post our findings and actually have hard data to find an answer to this question. This could also help a lot of people become familiar with setting thier instruments intonation. It doesn't even have to be restricted to just Alembics, or it could if that would make it easier.
 
Does this sound feasable? Or even worth it?

[Michael Walker (rockandroller)]

I just sort of figured that Alembic would already know the answer to this 'question', since in my mind its largely an urban myth :-)
 
But i DO like the scientific approach!
 
here is my test suggestion:
 
Bass should be tuned to A440 standard tuning, and precisely intonated so that the 12th fret matches the twelfth fret harmonic.
 
then all notes should be recorded as individual wav files, and their frquency determined (personally, i would run the note clip through sound-forge spectrum analyser, but any digital tuner that gives output in Hz could also be used)  
 
The list of note frequencies could then be compared to an ideal one based on the theoretical values for the equal temperament fret positions.
 
Then all that remains is a nice little database which stores the data and an interface that calculates and displays the deviations from IDEAL, filtered by scale length and string gauge. I could actually set this up online in a couple of hours.
 
A good sampling of  measurements from owners of long, medium, and short-scale basses could provide a 'scientific' insight to the question.

[Paul Ellsworth (elzie)]

I think that we should also add specs like, string gauge and manufacturer, make of bass, scale length, string height (bottom of string to fretboard) at the nut and the twelfth fret...
 
I have a 3 basses, a Fender short scale, a Warmouth custom with tremolo, and an Alembic Excel with 34 scale. So I should be able to get some good info  
 
Anyone else have any ideas?
 
PS, Michael, I didn't mean that first line in a bad way. I just figured since this question pops up a lot lately, why not get everyone involved and come up with an answer. It may be easier to understand if we do the work.
 
 
Paul

[Paul Lindemans (palembic)]

THis other Paul like to assist but he don't understand a word what Michael propose. Just the fact that a scientific experiment should be done. (Poor me: I think I have all the characteristics of a guinea pig).
 

[Michael Delacerda (dela217)]

I did some comparasions between my short, medium and long scale basses and their intonation. I did not find a significant difference in any of them!  As long as the intonation was set on all of them.  They ALL played a bit out of tune from the first to the 7th fret.  All of these basses intonated perfectly.  The open tuning and the fretted tuning on the 12th fret was perfect.  Once I started moving up the fretboard, the tuning was a bit off.  Not much I might add, it only showed up as off on the tuner and not to my ear.  There was no winning scale length here, they were all out!

[Peter Hess (locutusofborg10)]

Having owned numerous basses over a period of thirty years I have always been afraid of using the truss rods to tweak the necks.  I finally got up the courage to , at least, remove the truss rod cover on my Epic.  Having done this, I decided to go the next step and adjust the truss rod.  It was so easy to get the neck the way I wanted it.  I then adjusted the bridge to get rid of the little bit of buzz I encountered.  (I like the action VERY low.  I now have the bass exactly the way I want it with no buzz that it is even more of a pleasure to own and play it.
I could not have achieved this without this great
posting board being able to hear from so many other owners.

[mica]

We've not received comments about scale length and intonation concerns before. Considering we've made close to 13,000 instruments over the past 30+ years, I'm sure we'd have heard from our customers if there was any inherent intonation problems. I'd suspect the oldest instruments have a better chance of not intonating since the fret slots were cut by hand. Now they are cut on a CNC machine and calculated for each fingerboard, so we even make custom scale lengths regularly.
 
We've also discussed the special case of nut height - if the string nut is very high, you will use more force at that end of the fingerboard to fret, and this change in force can alter the tone of the note you are playing. This is easily corrected.  You can pull a quarter tone difference just in how you use your fretting hand.
 
It would be interesting to test intonation across different scale lengths, but an important consideration is that plucking a string is a non repeatable event. You never hold the string down the same way, you never set the string in motion exactly the same way, so understand these variables will influence the experiment (unless we build a fretting and plucking machine). I'll have to consider this more and plan how we would set up the experiment, and of course I'd love to hear any reports.  
 
I hope others are inpired by you Peter! Truss rods aren't  difficult to adjust, but the job can feel intimidating. As we've discussed on other threads, it's best to learn how to do the setup work yourself, especially if you like very low action. Then you can always make sure the instrument will play exactly as you need it to.

[Michael Walker (rockandroller)]

Interesting idea, but i dont think its really neccessary to build a 'fretting and plucking machine' :-)
 
Sure, every pluck of the string results in a unique amplitude and harmonics, but really, the plucking doesnt enter into the intonation discussion at all.
 
Assuming a properly set 'nut, neck relief, and bridge saddles' - all that is required is simply the ability to fret the note without applying so much excessive pressure as to make the note sharp. Its impossible to make the note flat, its either going to be spot on, or possibly slightly sharp (if you press REALY hard, with tall frets!)
More likely error would be from a slight sideways bending motion, but thats easy to avoid in clinical testing conditions, i would think!
 
Anyway, for the purposes of a few intonation measurements, i think most bassists are capable of consistently fretting correctly, that is -  the minimum fretting pressure in order to have the note sound, without any sideways bending involved.
 
And since these things are meant to be played by humans anyway, any minute variations in fretting shouldnt amount to enough deviation to warrant a conclusion of BAD APPLE - after all its gotta be close enough when playing music on the fly, anyhow...  
 
I think the human error factors would tend to average and cancel themselves out if enough samples were taken!
 
I AM glad to hear that after 13,000 instruments have been made, there has been exactly ZERO official reports of an inherent intonation problem. That pretty much puts my mind to rest, thanks :-))

[Alfredo (kayo)]

Hey Michael (rockandroller):
 
You have candidly encapsulated the gist of the issue very eloquently.  I concur wholeheartedly.