Author Topic: Oddball DS-5 question  (Read 267 times)

BeenDown139

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Oddball DS-5 question
« on: October 20, 2022, 05:27:10 PM »
while i'm on enforced bass and bicycle abstinence until i get my stitches out, i've got a bucket of projects  that i can do mostly one-handed.  i wanted to flip the bass corner around so i faced the room instead of the corner and i wanted to separate the power and signal line runs.  this necessated replacing the power cord on my DS-5 of indeterminate provenance that came with one of my series bassses.  i open up the box and i notice that one of mains wires has a black wire nut over a soldered joint.  hmm... the other mains wire has red heat shrink over some kind of assembly.  proceeding with the dissection, i find this little mystery soldered between the mains line and transformer primary.  that's not my  sketchy soldering, btw.  my mental rolodex of ancient arcane obsolete extinct electrical components sez it's a 3.3 ohm 1/2 watt carbon comp resistor.  my trusty electrician's DVM measures it at 12 ohms (!).  the power supply seems to do what it's supposed to so i left it as is.  the xfmr has a 1977 date code on it, the capacitors a 1975 date code.
my question is - is this the way these were made?  the old power supply designer guy in me can rationalize this a maybe inrush current mitigation, although they usually used thermistors in those days.  the 12-ohm reading is kinda strange. (btw, i do know how to operate a VOM, VTVM, DVM and just about any other kinda M from those days as well).

thoughts anyone?
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rv_bass

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2022, 07:07:07 PM »
That looks dangerous…

I typically don’t look inside those things, but if that is one I sent you let me know and I will send a different one. 

JimmyJ

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2022, 09:22:33 PM »
No, that doesn't look right.  I'm no expert but c'mon, what would be the reason to drop the voltage on the primary side of the transformer with a 1/2w carbon resistor?  I'd think that thing would get pretty warm?  Again, I'm self-taught in the electronics field so take anything I say with a grain of salt.

I do believe the original DS-5s had a "thermistor" on one side of the mains which acted as a fuse of sorts.  You'd likely find that under the shrink wrap on the other mains leg.  Pretty sure the wire nut on this leg should simply connect the power line to the transformer.

I've had this AC power inlet wire fail right there where it passes through the grommet.  I've repaired it by cutting it off and removing a couple inches, threading it through the grommet, and reconnecting it inside.  Of course I never had the proper tool so I would end up enlarging the grommet internally so I could squeeze it enough to get it to pop back into the hole with the new bend in the wire.  Then I'd reconnect to transformer and thermistor.

But I never saw a simple resistor in the circuit so can't imagine why that's there.  Perhaps the thermistor blew and they couldn't find a replacement?  Maybe a carbon resistor would have served a similar function and fail in case of overheating?  Seems more like a fire starter to me, but I don't know.

Wait for some factual info from somebody who actually knows what they're talking about before you make any mods.  That just can't be original...

Jimmy J

BeenDown139

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2022, 05:14:13 AM »
i was pretty sure it wasn't original when i saw the wire nut.  i can tell ya that a CC resistor makes a crappy fuse - when overpowered they either catch fire or blow to pieces making a nice mess inside of whatever it was they were "protecting".  they're also pretty crappy resistors, btw - not much more than pencil lead wrapped in bakelite.  they do emit that olde-tyme electronic funk when ya gets 'em hot, though.  kinda takes me back to the halcyon days of my mis-spent youth.  but i digress.  gotta pretty good morning buzz on dontcha know.

this thing ain't electronic rocket surgery or a family heirloom (that i know of, anyway) and it looks like it's been hacked on already anyways so if i gotta replace parts to bring it up to snuff then so be it.
pretty sure alembic wouldn't let it outta the shop like that but it is pretty old.  so i had to ask.
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BeenDown139

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2022, 05:26:14 AM »
forgot to add this.  oops.

Quote
I've had this AC power inlet wire fail right there where it passes through the grommet.  I've repaired it by cutting it off and removing a couple inches, threading it through the grommet, and reconnecting it inside.  Of course I never had the proper tool so I would end up enlarging the grommet internally so I could squeeze it enough to get it to pop back into the hole with the new bend in the wire

there is a tool that does this.  it's one more arcane specialized expensive tool that i'll only use once every 20 years that i didn't want moldering in the bottom of my toolkit.  if you've got some needle-nose vice-grips, a small stout flat-blade screwdriver a little dexterity and patience you can squeeze the inside of the grommet enough to get it started through the hole,either pull or pry the other end and it should pop right out.  done it hundreds of times.  the hole is usually specially shaped to keep the grommet from rotating so if you enlarge it you defeat it's purpose and loosen its grip on the wire. to get it back in, align the shape of the grommet to the hole, make sure the core is lays flat on its guide, squeeze the nose enough to get it started and use the vice-grips as a press to force it through the hole.
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JimmyJ

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2022, 08:53:09 AM »
forgot to add this.  oops.

Quote
I've had this AC power inlet wire fail right there where it passes through the grommet.  I've repaired it by cutting it off and removing a couple inches, threading it through the grommet, and reconnecting it inside.  Of course I never had the proper tool so I would end up enlarging the grommet internally so I could squeeze it enough to get it to pop back into the hole with the new bend in the wire

there is a tool that does this.  it's one more arcane specialized expensive tool that i'll only use once every 20 years that i didn't want moldering in the bottom of my toolkit.  if you've got some needle-nose vice-grips, a small stout flat-blade screwdriver a little dexterity and patience you can squeeze the inside of the grommet enough to get it started through the hole,either pull or pry the other end and it should pop right out.  done it hundreds of times.  the hole is usually specially shaped to keep the grommet from rotating so if you enlarge it you defeat it's purpose and loosen its grip on the wire. to get it back in, align the shape of the grommet to the hole, make sure the core is lays flat on its guide, squeeze the nose enough to get it started and use the vice-grips as a press to force it through the hole.

Yep, that's definitely the way to do it - in lieu of buying that once-in-20-years tool. I wonder if this system even exists anymore?  All gear now seems to be either DC pin sockets or IEC AC power entry sockets.)

When I said I enlarged things I didn't mean the D-shaped hole in the chassis.  I actually filled out a bit of internal plastic in the grommet so the wire didn't have to do such an acrobatic tumble on the way through.  That made it easier for me to squeeze it down and pop it back in. 

At some point in one of my boxes I managed to fit in a small in-line fuse holder instead of the OEM thermistor.  Mainly because I didn't understand what that was...

Your DS-5 needs some TLC but it's a good thing you looked!

Jimmy J

keith_h

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2022, 09:20:47 AM »
The Heyco system is still alive and kicking and the strain relief pliers are still readily available. If I was closer I'd let you use mine. When I don't have access to the tool I use a pair of flat nose pliers or needles nose pliers to depress the tang. It is a bit more work but gets it done with patience.

Just in case someone is looking:

https://www.amazon.com/Heyco-STANDARD-STRAIN-RELIEF-PLIERS/dp/B001BPY6KI

mica

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2022, 09:27:32 PM »
This DS-5 is from the earliest production, when the transformer was a Stancor TP-2 with a 115 VAC primary winding only, and there were taps for varying the voltage by a few percent, and those extra taps were cut off, some on the primary side and some on the secondary side to only leave the proper primary winding tap and the proper center tapped secondary winding for the bridge rectifier.
In those days grounded plugs were just being introduced in new construction and usually couldn't find safety grounded outlets, especially in small clubs and theater stages, so we stayed with the two-prong plug.   Instead of a fuse which didn't offer protection from overload transformer overheating, we used a thermal interrupter which would open at a temperature lower than the rated insulation in the transformer.   It was not uncommon in those days of two-prong plugs for a thermal cutout device to be incorporated inside the transformer winding, especially in a transformer that was connected 24/7.
The thermal cutout had to be connected with wire nuts and not soldering, because soldering heat opens open the device with no external change visible.  Also note the folded fish paper (rubberized paper) as extra barrier insulation where the power line wiring is housed.

As Jimmy J noted we would never use a carbon composition resistor here, and in addition we don't need a voltage drop here anyway, so if you don't have a replacement thermal protector, connect the line cord wire directly to the primary wire.
The original line cords were Belden HPN type and those had rugged Neoprene synthetic rubber that could stand hard abuse as well as high temperatures (we didn't need that aspect) and were often used for electric heaters, toasters, cooking utensils, etc. and had lots of fine wires for greater flexibility and longer flex life than the usual plastic insulated line cords used in lamps and other such household devices.  There were 41 very fine wires instead of the normal strand count of 7 fine wires.
But even with the increased flex life of the finely stranded wires, the first failure often occurs at the Heyco strain relief device probably because when stored inside the case if rotated in one orientation the cord is bent sharply against the wall of the storage box.   And this is made harder to diagnose because when intermittent, moving the wire one way will remake the connection and the storage capacitors keep the sound running for several seconds when moved another direction that breaks the power.     And there are some failures at the plug end of the cable with the same intermittent result.
Cool that the genuine Heyco tools are still available (although can't get used to the inflated prices these days) and the old tool we have has red handles.    But can't let the photo on the Amazon go without comment, as the plastic strain relief device is put in the tool backwards.   So you'd have to squeeze the handles really really hard and use extra pliers to make it go through the chassis hole backwards.

-ron   (writing on Mica's machine)


BeenDown139

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Re: Oddball DS-5 question
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2022, 05:46:05 AM »
thanks for all your input - this is much more attention than an ancient transformer-bridge-cap power supply deserves. opening one of these old boxes is a lot like cracking open an electrical panel in an old warehouse (my former career).  ya just never know how many generations of tool jockeys have traipsed around in there and what kind of easter eggs they left behind for you.  I could spin some yarns.  Again with the digression.  Sorry about that.   So ya clean up their mess the best ya can and move on.
i'm gonna connect the mains directly to the primary.  these old transformers are pretty indestructible as long as you don't mistreat 'em so i'm not too concerned about a spontaneous smoke emission event.  It’s got an AF/GFCI in the power conditioner upstream just in case things get weird while i'm not watching.
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