Author Topic: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?  (Read 1265 times)

s_wood

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Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« on: January 29, 2022, 09:29:51 AM »
I'm not sure how common this point of view is among Alembicians, but there are lots of intelligent musicians who truly believe that differences in tonewoods don't affect the tone of an electric guitar or bass.

This study, recently published by several researchers in Department of Mechanics and Vibroacoustics at the AGH University of Science and Technology in Cracow, Poland, strongly suggests that different tonewoods in an electric guitar produces a measurable and audible difference in sound:
 
 Jasinski et al. Archives of Acoustics 2021, vol. 46 no. 4, pp. 571-578. https://journals.pan.pl/Content/121810/PDF/aoa.2021.138150.pdf?handler=pdf
 
 Abstract (excerpt):
 "The presented study examined how the sound of a simplified electric guitar changes with the use of various wood species. Multiple sounds were recorded using a specially designed test setup and their analysis showed differences in both spectral envelope and the generated signal level."
 
 Conclusion (excerpt):
 "The tonewood used in the construction of an electric guitar can have an impact on the sound produced by the instrument. Changes are observed in both spectral envelope and the produced signal levels, and their magnitude exceeds just noticeable differences found in the literature. Most listeners, despite the lack of a professional listening environment, could distinguish between the recordings made with different woods regardless of the played pitch and the pickup used. The conducted test does not allow any conclusions regarding a more holistic outlook on a guitar’s timbre, as the observed relations are complex beyond the scope of the obtained results. Further tests regarding the guitar’s entire frequency response are required. It should also be noted that these tests were conducted based on a simplified guitar model, which might have overemphasized the researched phenomenon.”

Pretty cool...

gtrguy

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2022, 11:13:20 AM »
I'd say for electric guitar and bass #1 pickups and electronics
then construction (neck thru or other), scale length, quality of build and hardware, and neck and fretboard wood.

lbpesq

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2022, 12:14:08 PM »
Never underestimate fingers.   They are a very important part of the stew that influences an instrument’s tone.

Bill, tgo

keith_h

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2022, 10:13:08 AM »
I agree with the study. Having had the opportunity to listen to two basses that were essentially identical except one has a maple top and the other a walnut top I will say you can hear a distinct difference between them. While the woods might not affect the pickups and electronics they certainly interact with the strings and they way they vibrate. I don't see how anyone could think otherwise.

gtrguy

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2022, 11:23:27 AM »
This youtube video is an interesting watch, though I think wood does affect tone.


lbpesq

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2022, 12:47:00 PM »
I’ve seen the video before.   It seems to contend that pickups are 95%, if not 100% of the equation.  Who knows if those are the actual recordings or how it was recorded?   And I suspect my tiny computer speakers offer less than stellar reproduction of sound.   Nevertheless, IMHO wood does enter into the mix.

Bill, tgo

Bob_Ross

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2022, 05:50:11 PM »
Any time this (or a similar) topic comes up I like to share a quote I heard from John Amaral way back in 1978; he said

"Everything makes a difference in the sound of an instrument. The real question is, can you hear that difference?"

glocke

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2022, 12:04:37 AM »
I never understood how this is even a question.  The sound is a result of sound waves bouncing off the top of the instrument and being picked up by a pickup or the ears if its an acoustic instrument.  While not a physicist, I'd think the sound waves would reflect differently based on the type of wood used.

If there was no difference in tone due to woods, an upright bass made of plywood would sound no different than one made from " real " wood.

jazzyvee

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2022, 12:18:57 AM »
I closely agree with that quote " can you hear that difference?" for me personally.  Maybe we should be listening to the un-amplified sound of the bass/guitar to hear what construction woods, and build style are doing, since ultimately the strings vibrations are what we are hoping will be affected.
Maybe an acoustic contact pickup would be the way to go as that would take all the onboard electronics and magnetic pickups out of the equation.
I personally i have no idea what to listen to in order to hear the construction wood's component of the sound or even if my ears are good enough to decifer these differences it from the sound I hear.
Alway an interesting topic to read.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 12:20:31 AM by jazzyvee »
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

glocke

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2022, 12:35:43 AM »
I closely agree with that quote " can you hear that difference?" for me personally.  Maybe we should be listening to the un-amplified sound of the bass/guitar to hear what construction woods, and build style are doing, since ultimately the strings vibrations are what we are hoping will be affected.
Maybe an acoustic contact pickup would be the way to go as that would take all the onboard electronics and magnetic pickups out of the equation.
I personally i have no idea what to listen to in order to hear the construction wood's component of the sound or even if my ears are good enough to decifer these differences it from the sound I hear.
Alway an interesting topic to read.

I was fortunate enough to own a coco-bolo topped S2 and a maple topped S1 at the same time at one point in my life.

The difference between the two was to my ears night and day. The maple instrument had far more " zing " to it than the coco-bolo instrument which always seemed to have darker overtones associated with it.  Obviously this was an unscientific comparison, but I did do my best at times to set both instruments as flat as I could and compare the two.  Of course it could just all be my bias but I remember when that S2 was sent back to Alembic for some work, Mica told me she heard it being played and without even seeing the bass said she knew it was coco-bolo.

One thing that is a question I have is what if the wood is sealed with a poly finish of some type and not just oil rubbed?  Soundwaves are than bouncing off a flat, poly surface and not making it to the tone woods I am assuming.

gtrguy

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2022, 11:04:27 AM »
Wood also changes as it ages. I also think that the fretboard must have something to do with the sound, since for most of the length of the string it is directly over the neck.

dela217

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2022, 08:30:36 AM »
The difference from bass to bass is indeed night and day.    I have 2 Alembics with Series II electronics.    One of them is Walnut topped, maple and walnut neck.   The other is Maple topped with Graphite neck.   HUGE difference!

gearhed289

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2022, 08:36:09 AM »
Based on my own experience, I think fingerboard wood may possibly affect tone more than any other wood parts of the instrument. Ebony definitely has a certain "thing". A friend once argued that "the strings don't even touch the fingerboard because of the frets." Well, what are the frets embedded into?  ;D
But really, I think the biggest factor is pickups. As an example, my recently sold 1984 Hamer Blitz (Explorer) was all mahogany with a set neck and rosewood 'board. With DiMarzio P/J pickups, it sounded exactly like a P Bass when I soloed that pickup.

JimmyJ

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2022, 05:22:05 PM »
Good conversation, I think I'll jump in.

I would vote for the #1 thing that makes any electric instrument sound as is does is YOU.  Your hands, the way you strike the string, even the way you hold the string to the fret.  I've seen so many examples of this in my years of playing.  That particular guitar player will sound like themselves on whatever instrument they play.  "Look, Bob got a great new guitar ... and he sounds just like the old Bob."

The details WILL make a difference to you as the one playing the instrument.  But just be aware they are subtle and likely undetectable by others.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't pursue the details.  Partaking in "the quest" is not a bad thing, although it can be expensive if you fall completely down that rabbit hole.  (Wait, who am I talking to in here?  HA!)

One could certainly argue that the specific wood used on a Stradivarius makes a difference.  The differences may be more profound for acoustic instruments whose bodies are built to project the sound.  Although again, I would happily listen to Yoyo Ma play on a plexiglass cello if he decided to try one - or if one existed. 

I know that Mica and the Alembic team have spent a great deal of time and energy working out the effect different woods have on tone production.  I'm not arguing with that.  Just suggesting - I believe this variable puts the "b" in subtle.

My own experience is this: I fell in love with the sound of a Series I 4-string bass in 1975.  Got my first 5-string made in '76 and that was that!  I loved the sounds I could make with these basses and never turned back.  When I lost that original 5-string in '87 I had a replacement made with the same wood choices and the same dimensions.  To avoid living through that loss again, a couple years later I had two more instruments made in the same style, one fretted and one fretless.  The fretless was later changed to a fretted becoming a 3rd copy of my original.

So now I own 3 Series-II 5-string basses made of the same woods and with the same dimensions as my original 1976 model.  But guess what?  I have clear preferences between these basses.  The one I like best is my recording bass.  #2 is my road bass.  And #3 is my daily practice bass which I also take on the road as a spare.  These three "identical" axes are quite different, but I suspect only to ME.  I don't think anybody hearing me play one or the other could spot this difference.

Now Michael D, I also have a graphite necked fretless which is pretty clearly a different animal.  A through-body graphite neck, like aluminum I suppose, compresses the sound quite a bit.  In fact, it compresses the dynamics to the point that I find it difficult to play soft and loud without moving the master volume control, if you see what I mean.  It also sustains longer so the notes don't taper off as they do on my other basses - which I find ideal for a fretless.  So that is pretty clearly a different sound.  And yet I still get asked occasionally by people who should know better: "did you play fretless on that tune"?  So while these basses are hugely different to me, it seems that I still just sound like me.  HA!

I enjoyed that YouTube vid and appreciate the effort and almost scientific approach he took to the research.  Good sustain on that air guitar too.  Perhaps due to the 400lb bridge block?

Jimmy J

lbpesq

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Re: Tonewood Choices Affect Tone: Proved?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2022, 06:47:43 PM »
Another factor that can have a surprisingly significant effect on the instruments tone, at least for guitars, is the lowly pick.   Take three different material/thickness picks and play them back to back to back.   I recently tried this with my regular Dunlop Tortex .88, a 1.6 mm Telefunken graphite triangle that Harry (Heironymous) gave me, and a 2mm Adamas graphite.  I was quite surprised by the difference in sound.   As a result I’ve since switched to the Telefunken.

Bill, tgo