Truss Rod Redux - but on fretless?

[MuseChaser]

Just registered the Epic fretless 5-string I've owned for over 20 years, and found this forum.  I'm primarily a jazz pianist, but always loved playing acoustic bass and fell in love with the Alembic sound years ago when a bass player I worked with regularly played one.  I bought this used Epic in great condition in the late '90s and have loved it and played it ever since.  Lent it, recently, to a great friend and wonderful bassist I work with now, and he was enthralled with it but mentioned the setup was awful... way too much relief in the neck, but he didn't have the tools to adjust it.  I've been reading about setup procedures here (in the "Must Read" posts, and via forum searches) and elsewhere, but could use some extra help.

1.  Most of what I read refers to measuring height above frets.  Is the procedure any different for a fretless bass?
2.  It took almost a full turn of each truss rod nut to get some of the relief out of the neck.  Plenty still exists.  Lots of cautions about turning more than 1/4-1/2 a turn every few weeks.  Unfortunately, I read that AFTER making the adjustments.  I played for about an hour after making them, and things feel pretty good.  No damage done, I hope? Should I loosen them back up a bit, then go slower over a longer period of time?
3. The nut and the bridge are pretty much at the bottom of their travels, but the strings are still fairly high, at least according to my friend (and he's a great player.. toured with Chuch Mangione for quite a while). That never bothered me, but I'm not the player he is. What gives?

Any advice anyone is able to share would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[JimmyJ]

Welcome to the forum.

Setting the action is kind of a personal thing.  Some like it high and some like it low.  It often relates to how hard you pluck pick or slap the strings.  On the fretless, it's also about on how much "growl" you want.  My approach is to lower the action as far as possible until things start to rattle (frets) or growl (fretless) too much, then I'll raise it a hair until it's under control.

The advice about only turning the truss rod a 1/4 or 1/2 turn is really if you're just trying to tweak it a bit.  I think it just means, if the neck has shifted a bit with the weather, it shouldn't take more than a 1/2 a turn to get it back to where it was.  But since you're kind of adjusting it for the first time, I wouldn't worry too much. Just adjust it until the fingerboard is as flat as you like.  I don't think you can damage anything and don't think you need to loosen it now and gradually retighten.  My opinion anyway. Others will chime in if I'm wrong.

You probably understand the concept but let me do some unnecessary mansplaining:    The truss rod pulls against plates on either end of the neck creating tension in the opposite direction of the strings.  That's how it keeps the fingerboard relatively flat - or as flat as you want it.  My 5-strings have two truss rods and they seem to be quite tight to counteract the strings that I use and keep the fingerboard the way I like it.  I also recommend giving the neck a push and a pull after you adjust the truss rod, just to help it kind of settle in.  Don't freak out if you hear it creak a bit - these necks are really solid but the truss rod does move freely in it's channel.  And keep checking your tuning as that may change as you adjust the counter-tension.

The nut on a fretless can be extremely low, almost no height at all.  And that has a big effect on the feel of the strings because any extra height there causes you to press the string down further all along its length. 

Hey, if you get the chance, post some pictures here.  We all love pictures.  Also we'd like to see the bridge to help with your adjustment questions.

Jimmy J

[jacko]

Welcome to the family.  As Jimmy says, adjust the neck to where you're happy - there's no right or wrong.  One good thing about the Epic is it has a set neck and set up is a lot more stable than the through necks of pricier instruments. I bought my 5 string epic in 1995 and I've only had to adjust it once when I moved from the English midlands (sub tropical paradise) to Scotland (arctic conditions in summer then it gets cold in winter ).
My through necks need adjusting nearly every week here due to the changing weather conditions. Lucky our basses are super easy to adjust, especially if you've read Joey's post - https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=301.0

good luck

Graeme

[MuseChaser]

Incredibly helpful replies... thank you both very much.  I did read Joey's post and a few others first; one of my pet peeves is someone coming into a forum for the first time and asking a question that's been answered a zillion times already, so I did check around a bit first.

I'll put your suggestions to use today, and also post a few pics of the bass, the nut, and the bridge.  MUCH appreciated!

Edit... pics, as promised, as she currently sits...

[gtrguy]

I have bought used guitars where the previous owner has screwed up the truss rod adjustment and setup and the truss rod was way to tight or way too loose. I have also had instruments where the bridge radius did not match the neck profile. My total setup on a bass usually takes several incremental stages to dial it in and may take me a couple of weeks. I really don't measure the string height but go by the feel I want. I have also had to sometimes make a new nut or slot the saddles or shim the neck if it was a bolt on. I recently set up an Epic that I thought I would never get to where I was happy, but finally got it right by putting on 2 smaller than normal size strings along with adjusting all else.

[JimmyJ]

Thanks for the pics, that's a nice looking bass!

I actually don't know how the neck is attached on an Epic but I assume it's glued and not bolted, right? 

I think the set up you've got there looks good.  The only thing is that the bridge appears to be as low as it will go.  But if it feels nice as it is then leave it there.  The adjustable nut has a tiny bit of room on the low-string side if you want to try lowering it but it looks about right so maybe not.

If you do want to experiment with the nut ... the allen bolt between the B- and E-strings is holding the nut up while the allen bolt under the A-string is holding it down.  If you back out the bolt between B & E the nut will lower (just a tiny bit based on the visible gap in your pic).  Then you can lift off the A-string and gently snug that bolt down a bit (not too tight).  Just watch that your open E-string doesn't get too low and start buzzing.  And remember that if you need to raise the nut you must first loosen the bolt under the A-string...

As you can see, adjusting the action is a balancing act between the bridge, truss rod, nut, string gauges and tension...  And as Graeme said, there's no right or wrong.  Just get it to where you enjoy the feel and sound of it and you're done.

Jimmy J

[MuseChaser]

Well, time to say "thank you!" AGAIN, Jimmy.  I worked on the bass a bit more and got some more relief out of the neck.  Your tips regarding the nut were helpful too.. I wasn't sure exactly what  was looking at.  Lowered the low string side of the nut some more (down as far is it will go, and there's still plenty of clearance since there aren't any frets.. would actually like to try it a bit lower, but not worth messing around with files), then adjusted the bridge a bit.. raised the low side a bit, and I think was able to lower the high string side. Played for another thirty minutes or so and it sounds GREAT. Lots of sustain and growl, and LOTS easier on the hands! Sure wish I had found you folks a lot earlier.  Will keep dialing it in. 

When adjusting the bridge, is it OK to turn those two adjusting screws with a hex wrench with the strings tuned, or is it better to release some of the tension?  Seems like it takes a good bit of force to turn them, and I'm worried about the hex wrench slipping and stripping the screw heads.

Edit: While searching around the forum a bunch more, I found a GREAT post or two dedicated to dialing in the fretless sound you're looking for.... I guess this will be the NEXT rabbit hole!

https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=20803.msg214573#msg214573

[JimmyJ]

Glad you're getting it dialed in. 

If I'm trying to raise the bridge I detune the strings because, as you've noticed, the pressure of the string tension causes a lot of friction on those threads.  They don't seem to mind going down but coming back up is another story.  Also, the nut that is actually holding the bridge up on that bolt can decide not to move if you try to raise the bridge under tension, and you find yourself simply backing out the main bolt while the bridge stays still.  Then you need to disassemble things and get that nut back up where it belongs.

If you ever feel the need to lower the nut further, you can take it apart and remove some brass from the bottom of the main piece - as in, the flat side opposite the string slots.  Since it is suspended by two bolts and held in place by the 3rd, removing material from that spot will allow you to drop it down a bit more.

Now just keep playing that thing!
Jimmy J

[keith_h]

I generally like to keep the neck on my fretless fairly straight with close to no relief. It is the strings hitting the fretboard just the right amount that generates the mwah associated with a fretless. On my fretless Orion the difference in adjustment between getting the mwah, no mwah or a horrible buzz is not all that much so unlike my fretted basses where I can use measurements to get the instrument dialed in with the fretless it is very much an operation done by sound and feel.

[BeenDown139]

Adding my $0.02 USD FWIW YMMV:

Spring has sprung here in the mile high city and with the changing of the seasons comes the tweaking of the truss rods.  I have a '95 5-string fretless essence that is my faithful harbinger of spring (or winter or whatever).

i've found over the years that it takes a different mindset when setting the action on a fretless over a fretted bass.  On my fretted bass, i prefer the action as low as possible with the neck as straight as i can get it.  Typically i shoot for < 3 mm string height at 12th fret across the neck. This is readily achievable with dual truss rods and height adjustments on both ends of the string.

with the fretless, it's a whole different kettle of fish.  On my fretless, setting the action that low gives me a nice bucket of string rattle no matter the neck alignment.  so on that bass, i aim for just a slight amount of neck relief and adjust the string height until i get a nice growl out of it in the middle of the neck.  i usually wind up with ~5 mm from the fingerboard to the string bottoms at the 12 position.  A little high for my taste but i'm typically not shredding on the fretless like i do on the fretted anyway.  once i get it dialed in, the reward is the sound and the feel.

This particular fretless is the most temperamental bass i've ever owned.  it's really sensitive to temperature and humidity.  When it's ready for attention, it'll typically start rattling on the A string around the 7th position and then it radiates outward from there.  i suspect that the fingerboard is slightly uneven but i'm really not willing to go down that path to find out.  I liken this bass to a beautiful wayward lover - ya gotta look past its idiosyncrasies for the fruits of its rewards.  in this case it's the sound and the feel of it when it's all dialed in and tuned up.

Here's a couple of shots down the neck after this sunday's tweak-fest.  all dressed up and ready for summer!


 

[growlypants]

Nice!

[MuseChaser]

...

Here's a couple of shots down the neck after this sunday's tweak-fest.  all dressed up and ready for summer!

Thanks for posting... appreciate the further insights.  A question or two..

I noticed that you have your nut a bit higher than I have mine; mine's as low as it can go now, and there's still plenty of clearance for open strings to sound clear and buzz-free. This is just a question, not a value judgement... I'm too stupid and inexperienced to make those yet..

If I'm thinking this through correctly, the height of a fingered string above the fingerboard and pickups is determined by bridge height, pickup height and angle, neck shape, and to a very slight degree finger pressure.  Once a finger is pressing down on the string, does the nut have any effect at all on tone? Obviously, it will have an effect on how much finger pressure is needed, but as long as the nut is high enough for the open strings to be playable without buzz, what is gained by raising the nut above that point, other than more resistance feedback/feel through your fingers if one likes that additional resistance.  Is there more to it?

[BeenDown139]

I noticed that you have your nut a bit higher than I have mine; mine's as low as it can go now, and there's still plenty of clearance for open strings to sound clear and buzz-free.

it took a lot of back and forth adjustment between the bridge, nut and truss rods to get the action set on this bass to my satisfaction.  that's the beauty of these instruments is that you have a lot of options to get the action dialed into your playing style.  i play using an aggressive percussive fingerstyle and that probably drives my setup as much as my string choice. 

i have this bass strung with TI jazz flats JF345's .043 - .136  which are a somewhat heavier gauge than i use on my fretted bass now that i think about it which may account for why i had to raise the nut a little to counteract the fingerboard noise that i was having.

as far as your other questions go, i'm not sure i can help, maybe somebody else can chime in - i just kept working with the instrument until the voices in my head said to stop.

[JimmyJ]

Since these instruments are essentially hand made they all differ slightly in neck shape, fingerboard thickness, etc.  So looking at the nut from the tuning peg side doesn't indicate how low it is on the fingerboard side, if you see what I mean.  The gap you see on BeenDown's is specific to that exact instrument and doesn't mean it's higher than yours on the fretboard side.

But as I said above, if you'd like to lower your adjustable nut some more you just need to remove a bit of brass from the underside of the upper piece.  Sounds daunting but it's really not because the adjustment screws allow you quite a bit of tolerance.  Make a 1/16" mark and go for it.  Just go slow.

Your logic is correct - aside from keeping the open strings from rattling, the main thing the nut effects is the "feel" of the action height.  Once you have your finger pressing the string down somewhere the nut is no longer part of the equation.  But it does effect how far you need to push the string to get it to the fingerboard (or fret) and that is for the entire length, so a lower nut can save you some effort. 

Jimmy J

[cozmik_cowboy]

I won't try to expand much on the excellent advise the other guys have given you (what - I'm gonna question Jimmy???  Not a chance!), but I will say two things:


1) The small increments of truss rod adjustment are far less a matter of preventing damage than to reduce the chance of overshooting your goal, as it takes a little while for a neck to get to where the TR is telling it to go; do 1/4 turn and let it sit for a day or 2 and you're less likely to find yourself going back the other way a little later.


2) Don't worry too much about measuring if you don't want to.  When I started doing setups (back when the Earth & I were young), I was too young & stoned to know I didn't know what to do, so I just did it.  It was decades before I came across the concept of measuring, and now that I do, I often find it harder to do than my old reliable eyeball-and-feel method.  And someone else's measurements might be your measurements; I'd suggest getting it where you like it by feel, then measuring, so you know where to go to get what want on subsequent tweakings.


Peter (whose most common method for setting relief is to set the neck dead straight unstrung, then string & tune; often nails it right there, and always gets me real close to what I want)