Philosophical/Technical Question for Guitar Players

[edwardofhuncote]

Little bit of a ramble here... might take me a while to get to the point.

I am a bass player. Bass is 'home' to me, it's what I know, it's what is natural to me, it's how I think and process things musically. I want to improve as a guitar player. (Well, okay - that didn't take very long after all...)

So I have a little guitar-game, and can hold my own with an acoustic in any bluegrass/oldtyme scenario, stage or jam. I picked it up ironically, years ago, after some really bad upright technique rewarded me with enough tendonitis that I simply could not play bass for a while. While my wrists healed up, I started learning a few chords, and began attending band practices with a buddy, didn't take long before I picked up rhythm guitar. Skipping forward >>> I caught mandolin poisoning one Summer, and suddenly the ability to process melody lines and reproduce them happened, and I found that I could transpose these over to guitar if I had a few minutes to think about it. Big jump there.

This past year, like most of you, I found myself gig-less, and looking for something to do, so the guit-fiddles came out of the locker more often to entertain me, since me and my basses couldn't be entertaining the good folks of Greater Southwest Virginia. Simultaneously, and somewhat cruelly, my collapsing spine pinched off some more nerves, putting the ring and pinky fingers to sleep. I get them back for a 2-3 month period after targeted epidural steroid injections, and the race is on. Play, play, play. At least I didn't miss out on any gigs. There'll be another fusion surgery and some Titanium upgrades to fix this more permanently, but that's a story for another post.   

I'm getting to it...

I don't really have much of a clue how to improve as an electric guitar player. I know the instrument, I know where the notes are, I can even make them sound pretty good, but I simply don't have the lexicon. I don't know what to play, or maybe more importantly, when. I can't seem to make the jump from what I hear to what I play. I still play guitar like a bass player. I think it may be an experience thing.

I'll say at the top - I don't care how derailed the thread goes... I'll take anything from gig stories to advice to outright scolding. Just don't make fun of me. 

[cozmik_cowboy]

Well, if you're willing to take advise from The World's Worst Guitar Player, the way to improve on electric guitar is to - wait for it - play electric guitar.

Peter

[David Houck]

You didn't mention, perhaps intentionally, what kind of music you want to play on electric guitar.

[lbpesq]

Rhythm?  Lead?  Particular songs?  Style?   What is it you are looking to do?

Bill, tgo

[gtrguy]

Hey, nothin to it!
"If it were easy as fishin' you could be a musician
If you could make sounds loud or mellow
Get a second-hand guitar, chances are you'll go far
If you get in with the right bunch of fellows"

[gtrguy]

And:

"So you want to be a rock 'n roll star
Then listen now to what I say
Just get an electric guitar
And take some time and learn how to play

If you make the charts
The girls will tear you apart"

[edwardofhuncote]

You didn't mention, perhaps intentionally, what kind of music you want to play on electric guitar.

It wasn't as much with intent as it was just not to be exclusive. Most of the music I have the easiest access to does not usually include electric instruments. I think I could do it to a point... most folks are used to me playing bass guitars for instance. There's that, and also... I don't really know where it will fit yet, but it's in my head trying get out.

Rhythm?  Lead?  Particular songs?  Style?   What is it you are looking to do?

Bill, tgo

Well, those are fair questions. And you'd think I'd have known before I started, but I don't really.

I'm less interested in 'lead guitar'. I think that will come on its own. Rhythm guitar, yes, but I have to confess that I really am not sure what it is outside of the familiar context of what I know.

What will I do with it? Well... when I'm just playing in my house, sometimes I play improvisational instrumental things. I play around with familiar melodies. I might take "Jack-A-Roe" for instance, and play it at a cadence, not necessarily at a time signature, just mess with the A minor scale, but staying within the confines of the song's structure. I think if I were playing and singing that tune with someone else though, I would definitely need to play something more rhythmic, particularly through the verses. So, do I just grab a big ol' barre chord and run with it, or try to ornament/punctuate each phrase with something? What I would play on an acoustic guitar -big, strummed open string chords- would not work well at all. That's just one in a thousand examples, obviously, but those are the things that I am struggling with.

I wonder if having a role model to follow might help. I've always kinda' just listened to what this bass player or that one did, and incorporated it into the helix... what became my master plan, and to this day, I refer back to it. I have no such person on guitar to model after.

I will probably lean more to the folk side of music. I like a lot of things. I can hear some bluesy rock things happening too. Unexplored territory, all of it for me.

[edwardofhuncote]

Well, if you're willing to take advise from The World's Worst Guitar Player, the way to improve on electric guitar is to - wait for it - play electric guitar.

Peter

I some doubt the legitimacy of this title. (most sound-guys I know can play circles around the guys they are trying to engineer...)

I do take your underlying point though, and yes, I've been putting in the woodshedding time on the instrument with no goal other than to become more familiar with what sounds they make, and building those little neural pathways in my head. Bread crumbs, to find my way back.

Hey, nothin to it!
"If it were easy as fishin' you could be a musician
If you could make sounds loud or mellow
Get a second-hand guitar, chances are you'll go far
If you get in with the right bunch of fellows"

This is very close to right-on, David... I think if I had a couple folks to jam with, I'd figure out pretty quick where I fit in. It might happen.

[rv_bass]

My 2 cents:  learn melodies, chord voicings, scales up and down the neck, dampening/muting strings with both hands, targeting specific strings to play with your "strumming" hand, combining chords with scales/arpageos, when to play and when not to play, and most importantly play with others to interact musically.  If you are focusing on electric rhythm guitar, maybe think like a keyboard player. 

[cozmik_cowboy]

If you are focusing on electric rhythm guitar, maybe think like a keyboard player. 

Early in the Dead's career, when Jer & Phil suggested maybe Bobby wasn't progressing fast enough, he immersed himself in McCoy Tyner (and string quartets).

Peter (who will stand firmly by his claim to the title, and hold Bill up as witness)

[lbpesq]

Do you know about the CAGED system?   It’s not a bad place to start expanding from those open “cowboy chords”.

Bill, tgo

[edwardofhuncote]

Do you know about the CAGED system?   It’s not a bad place to start expanding from those open “cowboy chords”.

Bill, tgo

Nope... I may be, but not familiar with the term. Acronym for something? I'll go Googling this evening. I can form chords just anywhere on the neck, just by knowing what notes are necessary to make a chord be this or that. I can augment or diminish them with some degree of competence. I had to learn this as a bass player, just to suss out what root note I needed to play under this chord or that one, playing backup to a LOT of guitar players. In the process, I kinda' accidentally learned to read them. Then I went to a number system I didn't care much for in Nashville, but that was how they did bizniss down there in the 90's. I made my own letter and symbol charts; they only made sense to me, still works until I memorize passages. But the short answer is yes, like Guitar George, I know all the chords. Well, almost. 

My 2 cents:  learn melodies, chord voicings, scales up and down the neck, dampening/muting strings with both hands, targeting specific strings to play with your "strumming" hand, combining chords with scales/arpageos, when to play and when not to play, and most importantly play with others to interact musically.  If you are focusing on electric rhythm guitar, maybe think like a keyboard player. 

So, lock rhythm guitar with a keyboard player? Wild. I hear that though, especially in Grateful Dead music. Fleetwood Mac too.

For the life of me, I can't ever tell what in the world Bobby is playing with the Dead. I'm sitting here this minute listening to Dead & Company, trying to figure out how he's accompanying himself and Mayer on "Cumberland Blues".

[gtrguy]

I actually started back in the day with some friends and we learned CCR tunes when they were actually new (that shows my age) but we had so much fun. For blues I would learn the pentatonic (sp?) scale in 1 or 2 keys and positions, like 'A' in the middle of the neck, plus some basic 7th and 9th chords. For folk I would learn good old open chords down at the bottom of the neck and play some songs I liked. These days, after 50+ years of playing guitar and 40 yrs on bass, I am back learning jazz, which is great too!

You will have so much fun as well!

[rv_bass]

So, lock rhythm guitar with a keyboard player? Wild. I hear that though, especially in Grateful Dead music. Fleetwood Mac too.

For the life of me, I can't ever tell what in the world Bobby is playing with the Dead. I'm sitting here this minute listening to Dead & Company, trying to figure out how he's accompanying himself and Mayer on "Cumberland Blues".


[/quote]

No, not actually lock with the keyboard player, although you do have to be aware of what they are playing since you are in the same space. I was suggesting thinking like a keyboard player in terms of what and how you play as rhythm guitar.  Peter mentioned McCoy Tyner, I was actually thinking of McCoy as well as Bill Evans.  Those big chords and intricate rhythms that compliment, contrast, and support everything else that is going on. As far as Weir goes, listen to his 72-74 stuff, that will give you a good perspective.  And there are a lot of Jazz guitarists to refer to as well. Also note that Weir is playing inside the music, if that makes sense. Check out Miles' In a Silent Way, Bitches Brew, On the Corner, you can get a sense of what I mean from those.  Also mandolin players (e.g. Grisham and Bush, among many others.  Rhythm guitar is a lot of fun...explore and enjoy! 

[cozmik_cowboy]

As far as Weir goes, listen to his 72-74 stuff, that will give you a good perspective. 

There is one particular vid from '72 - might be the Beat Club in Bremen, but I'm leaning more to Milkweg, in Amsterdam  - where for a change the camera doesn't stay on Jer no matter what's happening; there's a bunch of really clear footage of Bobby's hands that show just how much he's doing, and how he's doing it.

Peter