Author Topic: EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)  (Read 3059 times)

Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2002, 11:19:35 AM »
BTW - will small frets improve your action?  and does Alembic still put graphite in their necks (as a standard) today?  If not, what is the DISadvantage to graphite?
 
Thanks all!
Bryan

David Fung (dfung60)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2002, 09:12:32 PM »
Lots on this already, but I'll chime in some too.
 
I play pretty hard, so buttery smooth is NOT equal to low for me.  But regardless of your playing style, you do the same things to tweak your action for perfect playability.
 
Your ability to lower the action is bounded by your tolerance for fret buzz.  When you pluck (or pick) the string, it vibrates perpendicularly from the direction you hit it.  If you pluck exactly parallel to the face of the bass, then the string's motion is side to side across the neck.  If you're not exactly parallel, then some amount of the string motion will be up-and-down relative to the fingerboard.  That up-and-down motion over the frets is where fret buzz comes from.  The harder you hit the strings, the more up-and-down motion you'll have.  And the lower you set your action, the more likely that the up-and-down motion will hit the frets causing buzz.
 
This is why you generally dial in some relief or bow into the neck.  If the neck/frets were perfectly flat, then it's highly likely to buzz since any up-and-down motion will clank on the frets.  So, you dial a bit of relief in which in effect makes a little more space between the vibrating string and the fingerboard - voila, less buzz.  For most quality basses (all Alembics qualify here), the truss rod(s) are key to getting the action the way you want.  This lets you dial in the exact amount of relief that you need for your playing style, strings, and the climatic conditions you're playing in.  Too much relief and you won't buzz, but the action will feel high and slow in the middle registers.  Get it just right, and it'll feel low, fast, and buzz free.  Learning to do the truss rod adjustment is one of the best things you can do as it will allow you to maintain optimal action regardless of the humidity or temperature.
 
Alembics are really superior instruments from a workmanship standpoint, so it's unlikely you will encounter some of the many neck problems that prevent the truss rod from tuning your action. With Alembics, you have an excellent chance of getting properly aged, straight neck wood, properly assembled, properly levelled, etc.  With cheap instruments, the effect of the truss rod might not be even across the length of the neck - you won't get low action if your truss rod makes an S-bend in the neck short of a refret!
 
Straight from the factory, they would normally have done an excellent regular setup, but if you live in a place with radically different climate than when they did the setup, you'll need to at least tweak truss rods for best action.  
 
If you really want to go super low, then you will need to make sure everything is super precise.  When they build the instrument, the fingerboard is ground to precise flatness, then they insert the frets then grind the fret tops to precise flatness as well.  If the fret tops aren't precisely flat (either due to a grinding error, fingerboard error, or a twist that developed after assembly), then the high fret will limit how low your action can be set.  In this case, you should take your bass to a qualified luthier who lives in your geographic area.  They'll do a fret grind or level which will bring everything into alignment.  You should pick somebody good who lives near you so they'll be doing the setup in the same humidity and conditions that you'll be playing in.  Then your setup should be optimal again.
 
Depending on your playing style, you will also experience fret wear.  When that happens, you'll be buzzing again, since there are low and high points over the various frets.  Usually fret levelling will fix this, but eventually, you'll need new frets.  When doing a fret job, they'll pull all the frets, sand the fingerboard flat, refret and level the frets.  Alembic uses great materials, but hold on to your hat if you need a fret job on your Series II with LEDs - you won't be a happy guy.
 
Once you get the frets level and relief set properly, you'll be in business. Given good construction (e.g., working truss rod), this is all that it takes to get a perfect pro setup.  Most players are keyed into all this stuff, and it's just easier to try a lot of instruments until you find one that happens to be right for your style and location.  But with a little work, any of them could be perfectly tailored for you.
 
Just a couple of other notes...  Somebody asked about stiffer necks.  That's isn't required for good action, but makes it a lot easier to maintain.  Even small changes in humidity and temperature can effect your relief - since the wood is a natural material, you won't know how subject it is until the neck is built.  Adding laminations or stiffners can help resist some of the environmental stuff and make it easier to maintain.  A graphite neck (a la Modulus) is pretty much impervious to regular environmental conditions, so once you get it set up, it generally will stay that way.  The caveat there is that the Modulus neck didn't have a truss rod until recently which means that once you built the neck, the relief wasn't going to be easy to change without grinding it into the frets.  For most people, I think that was undesireable, which is part of the reason Alembic doesn't offer them anymore.  I speak from experience here as the owner of a graphite Series II.  The action from the day I picked it up was always buzzy due to lack of relief during construction and it's so stiff that you could tune it up a third with no visible change in the relief.  When I got it I wasn't as sensitive to this, but over the years found I wasn't playing it much because it wasn't that comfortable to play.  I recently had this cured by a super-duper fret grind that was done to match the relief to my main bass.  The luthier that did this grind is the custom shop builder at Modulus, but with the LEDs, he told me that he wouldn't do it if he had to actually refret - too risky.  It's great now though.
 
Somebody also asked about the importance of a flat fingerboard to low action.  This shouldn't be an issue on basses, but flatter fingerboards are pretty common on shred guitars.  It's for a totally different reason though.  The curvature of the fingerboard is there to make it more comfortable for you to play, especially when playing barre chords on guitar.  More curve makes it easier for you to barre successfully.  But when you bend the high-E string across the neck, that curve will cause fret buzz as the string crosses over the center of the neck (think about it for a while and it'll make sense).  So a lot of technical players went to a flatter neck to avoid this problem.  Of course, it's much harder to barre then, but this doesn't seem to be much of a problem for Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, or Buckethead.  Unless you bend sideways across the neck of your bass a lot, it won't matter.
 
There was also a question about small frets.  This is also mostly a guitar thing, since your fingertips actually touch the fingerboard on the thinner strings.  A taller, thin fret is a different feel.  Unlikely you press your string down that hard on bass!
 
David Fung

Joey Wilson (bigredbass)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2002, 11:30:24 PM »
Bryan:
 
The feeler guages are an assortment of thin metal blades shaped like popsicle sticks.  They are made to a thickness that's marked on each one.  You can pick these up wherever auto parts are sold for a couple of bucks.  (They're from the bygone days of measuring the gap on the rotor in the distributor on your engine, now replaced by various electronic spark systems.)
 
Like I mentioned, we use these to measure the height between string and fret along the neck, once the bass is tuned to pitch and capoed in several spots.  Using these measurements is the way we can work towards a particular setup.  As you can see, my particular setup is a set of numbers.  Therefore, I can always achieve my setup. No guesswork.  ALEMBIC could build me another bass, set it up to these numbers, and it would come out of the box ready to go.  
 
I'm pleased you're learning.  There's a LOT of BS out there.  Learning the hard facts of it all will make you a much smarter consumer, and a much happier player.  Remember, none of us learned this overnight.  But believe me, if I can learn this, anyone can !
 
Best Regards,  
Joey Wilson

Bob Novy (bob)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2002, 11:03:02 PM »
Joey - I remember the days of tuning the dual carbs (among other things) on my MGB/GT, and a Triumph Spitfire before that. So I'm certain there's at least one set of feeler gauges out in the garage, but they're pretty grungy... and even new, I still wouldn't like sliding them against my fretless fingerboard. The card trick is enough to get me close enough to fine-tune by feel, and everybody can find a deck of cards, right?
 
Certainly the gauges would be a bit more precise, if I had to specify an action for someone. I thought about doing that with my order, but figured that no matter what Alembic did I'm going to be messing with it myself anyway. And though Mica drops these little hints from time to time (Maybe on your next one we'll do...), I'm really not even dreaming about getting another one.

Paul Lindemans (palembic)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2002, 05:25:48 AM »
Hi friends,
 
maybe tghis weekend there were some people like me sitting down with that old faithfull bass and see what could be done at the action of the bass putting it low for easy play and the less possible buzz. Anyway ...I did.
Bob ... I followed your steps and it was a fine thing to do.
BUT  (for some reasons there is always a but with me ...well apart from THAT but ;-)). Measurements on the B and G string on my SII 5 string were really clowe and without to much buzz or at least a buzz I could control by my playing style and fingertouch. But it didn't worl for the A string (who is rught in the middle of the neck as you all know). The A string was'nt really buzzing but had clapped (a nasty claping sound) when I plucked that string. How can that be?
I'm a litlle nervous now because I think I have to loosen it all up a bit again and concentrate myself on that A string.
Someone an idea. Bob?
 
Paul

Bob Novy (bob)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2002, 05:31:59 PM »
(thought I successfully posted this several hours ago, but guess not)
 
Paul,
 
Glad to hear you're experimenting with setup. I think I understand what you mean by the clapping sound, but just to be sure - it's like when the entire length of the string slams against the frets, or fingerboard, just when you first strike it. A good example would be when you play an open string (unlikely to buzz) and strike it in such a way that you push the string down hard towards the neck, rather than pulling it across horizontally. Or like when you're putting on new strings and haven't got them up to pitch yet.
 
Assuming that's what you're describing, it's most likely because your A string is lower tension than the others. You could confirm this with a simple experiment. Try tuning the A up to A# or maybe even B, and see if it gets better. Conversely, tune your B or E down a half step or so and see if they start clapping. (I think of this as fretboard slap, anyone know a better or more offical term?)
 
If so, then lookup the tensions for the strings you're using (on the package, or maybe on the web) and see how they compare for the different strings. Every set has different variations from string to string, sometimes radically so. If you can confirm it's a tension problem, then you may wish to consider different strings, or even just a slightly different A.
 
If not, I'm sure you'll be back with another but...
-Bob

Paul Lindemans (palembic)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2002, 12:30:08 AM »
Hi Bob,
 
not much buts this time.
As a matter of fact I INDEED switched strings: from d'Addario soft gauge roundwound to DR some special thight wounds with 120-100-80-60-40 as measurements. It indeed happened for the first time with these strings. They have a pretty feel and are sounding very even wherever you play it. I'll try out what you suggest and come back with the info.
Thanks again!
 
Paul
 
PS: any news from your new bass yet?

Brian Ceasar (bbe1020)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2003, 06:46:30 AM »
Hello Paul, I must have missed your post in the past, but I found it while searching the archives.
I'm assuming that you are still using the DR strings you mention in your post, right? I'm using the THOMASTIK POWERBASS strings on my series II, and I couldn't be ANY happier with my bass. These strings are low tension, with the following gauge: (B)119, (E)107,(A)98, (D)68, (G)47. The strings are made in AUSTRIA, so you should be able to get a set with no problem. A music store in my area, (the ONLY dealer in my area)is listed here: www.centralmusicwarehouse.com (Laron Young)When your DR's go flat, try a set of the THOMASTIK. Hey Paul, I also recently changed the hat knobs on my series II, and replaced them with the collet style knobs. Now we can say that our basses are related! LOL    

Paul Lindemans (palembic)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2003, 07:13:25 AM »
Friend Brian!
Long time no see (HA).
How did it go with the F1-X / F2-B struggle?
For me there's a SF-2 and a DS5-R on his way as you propably know.  
Next step will be F1-X and Power amp.
Faaaaaaaaaa-aaaaaaar in the future.
 
I don't use the DR strings anymore (I sended my other set to brother Mikey). I re-use the d'Addario soft gauges again and things are a lot better.
Those TOMASTIK I'm gonna try. I think I now a place where I can find them!
BTW: The collet style are those from Switzerland? Mica said that the knobs on Bonnie are Swiss made. So they make something else as pocket-knifes.
 
Paul