Author Topic: EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)  (Read 3070 times)

Joey Wilson (bigredbass)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2002, 10:36:23 PM »
Bryan:
 
The Dan Erlewine book is The Guitar Player Repair Guide by GPI Books/Miller Freeman Books.  
ISBN 0-87930-291-7, $22.95.  You can find at the mall bookstores or smarter music stores.  It has a terrific section on bass action.  It's thoughtfully written and understandable for novices to the subject (after all, even I understood it!), and yet thorough in its technical explanations.
 
The only other bass in wide circulation with an adjustable nut is Warwick.  It is, however, an inferior design:  The nut is actually fixed.  There is a phillips head screw in the bottom of each nut slut that screws in and out to provide up and down.
 
ALEMBIC's design is superior.  The nut rides on a brass bass, and the height adjustment screws are between the strings.  My five string has the center screw (which LOCKS the bridge in place) in the bottom of the slot for the A-string, but the hole for the 5/64 allen screw is tiny. And the bass side is separate from the treble side for extremely precise fine tuning of the action on the multi-string basses(5-strings and more).
 
How does this help your search for low action?
The nut can now tilt up on either side (usually a little on the bass side), yet it still maintains the same curve as the neck radius.  You always want the nut and the bridge to mirror the neck radius.  At the other end of the neck, the bridge is built to the same radius as well.
 
I'm hopelessly sold on Alembics, not just because of what they are.  I am always delighted by the insight manifested in the construction and features of these magnificent instruments. And as you can see, this community in The Club is always willing to help.
 
Besides, how often can you own a legend, much less have a legend built just for you?
 
Best Regards
Joey Wilson (bigredbass)

Michael Paskel (Mikey) (pookeymp)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2002, 08:24:37 AM »
Hey Guys,
 
While talking about bass action, maybe I can be offered a suggestion here for my action.  I as well, like an extremely low action.  I can't speak in terms of measurements, but low enough that she's clean when I'm caressing the strings, but if I dig in she will buzz and growl a bit, which I like (Hey Paul...another point we agree on).  This is the way my Tobias is setup and I love it.
 
On my Mark King, I have my bridge dropped as low as she will go. I like my neck very straight, which she is.  While the action is pretty close and comfortable to play with, there is absolutely no buzz and I can't dig in as much because the action is not quite as tight as my Tobias.  The problem is I don't have anywhere else to go with the bridge or the nut.  I'm not crazy about the idea of filing down the string saddles or shaving the sustain block at a machine shop, which was suggested by another bassist, but would that be the only way or are there any other options.  She doesn't need to go much at all, just a hair (I know this isn't very technical).  Any thoughts.
 
Mikey/
 
P.S.  I'm using D'Addario RoundWounds Super Soft (40-60-75-95-125)

Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2002, 09:01:54 AM »
Mikey,
 
You've brought up another very good topic related to this issue, and that is STRING TENSION.
 
Since you mentioned your Tobias bass, it reminded me of a conversation I had with him on this topic.  I had Mike build me a bass ~20 years ago, when I lived in L.A.  I asked him why the strings on some of his basses seemed to have a very taunt feel, while others had a looser feel.  Since he was using the same gauge GHS Boomers on all of his basses, it was NOT the strings that made the difference - it came down to the design of the bass.  
 
As I recall, his reply was that it had to do with various issues (wood settling, etc.), but that he had no way to gauge this until the bass was actually born.  Is this the case?
 
I personally like a looser string tension overall because I usually play over the back pickup (closest to bridge), which is naturally a very taunt part of the string.  I noticed that Alembic places their back pickup VERY close to the bridge, so often times it's TOO taunt for me to play there.  I'm sure Alembic could reposition the bridge/or pickup so that I could play over it where it's not quite so taunt, but would that affect the Alembic sound?
 
Mica, have you found any way to control how taunt or loose the strings will set-up on the bass prior to it being produced?  What does control this (other than string brand/gauge)?
 
 
Finally, I would suspect that the taunter the string, the lower the action would truly be.  However, the looser the string, the easier it would actually be to play.  Am I correct?
 
Another topic to explore.
 
Thanks for all the great input!
Bryan

Paul Lindemans (palembic)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2002, 09:37:38 AM »
Hey Again,
 
the place WHERE you play the strings has his influence on vibration on the strings (I guess) and so the buzz you get. I'm not playing above the bridge pick-up but on every bass I lay my hands on I play on the same place wich is rather close to the bridge. Mark King f.i. plays also that way and he uses very light strings (an E string of .90 I think). On the other hand Stanley plays over the neck and gets a very typical sound also created by the (deliberate wanted) sound of the buzzing. Armand Sabal Lecco plays also more to the neck on his Alembic, Fender and Sadowski but I've already seen that he is merely moving around in touch place to create a specific sound. Something you can hear very good when playing an Alembic: changing plucking place immediately changes your sound.
 
Paul

Michael Walker (rockandroller)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2002, 12:11:45 PM »
according to basic physics, playing closer to the fretboard (where,  - unless you are fretting at the 24th fret,  - the string is more free to vibrate) can indeed cause a larger excursion (amplitude of vibration) - all things being equal with regards to picking force.
 
However, if you pick there 'more gently', you can get all the tone of that area (its bassier, among other things) without all the rattle! I have noticed that the whole length of the string has different harmonics depending on where you pluck it... so if you learn to play with a very light touch - then you can use the whole range to its maximum. I think the trick is just turning yer amp up a VERY LOUD, and getting used to picking VERY SOFT - then you will get maximum 'buzzlessness' out of yer low action.
 
that said, the better the bass is built (and adjusted) the lower that 'maximum low action' will be...  
 
**********************************
 
There must be some PHYSICAL LIMIT based on scale length and string guauge - that is, for a given gauge & length, (and tuned to 'concert pitch') there must be a point where:
 
If plucking force is defined within a given range of forces*  - hard enough to excite the string to desireable amplitude (loud enough to give decent sustain, as well as  good signal-to-noise-ratio for the pickups, etc) and where plucking any softer will not cause the string to vibrate audibly.  
 
*Hopefully (for musical purposes) there is a nice 60dB or more of dynamic range possible!
 
THEN, at the maximum of the given desireable' pluck attack dynamics, the string is moving a measureable distance in its ampitude.
 
FINALLY, the bass is set up in such a way that this amplitude of string excursion does not bottom out on any of the frets!
 
I'm sure some bass-playing physicist could run some experiments, and give a 'definitive mathematical answer' to this age-old problem!
 
Mind you  - the answer would only be suitable to those who prefer the lowest possible string action, and are willing to utilize a certain technique in order to get it!
 
I wonder if that magic number is hidden in the Alembic archives somewhere :-)

Kris Stewart (elwoodblue)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2002, 08:45:16 PM »
hmmm...
I  always wanted a very long scale guitar (as long as I could still hold the first few frets reasonably),with huge strings, and a tight stable neck to deal with it.
 The heavy strings would have be tighter to compensate for the length and mass. Also the winding on the tuning post would have to be done well (hopefully a given).
   All else equal;  scale length it seems is what my first concern would be in minimizing buzz when the tune requires a clean sound,...if I thinking right  ; )
... loving my  Alembic Baritone for those reasons.
 Kris

Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2002, 09:15:10 PM »
That brings up another question :-)
 
TRUE OR FALSE - The longer the scale the tighter the string tension?
 
Mica, have you found any way to control how taunt or loose the strings will set-up on a bass prior to it being produced? What does control this (other than string brand/gauge)?  
 
Bryan

Bob Novy (bob)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2002, 04:47:13 PM »
Talk about buzz... lots of good observations buried in here, amidst quite a bit of confusion. I was hoping to wait until I actually have my own Alembic (should be a matter of weeks at this point), but can't bear to remain on the sidelines any longer, so let me take a stab at focusing the discussion a bit.
 
The original question had to do with how to achieve the lowest possible action, and so far we've covered construction, setup, string selection, playing style, and of course physics - which is probably the right set of topics.
 
Construction: Mica sort of said as much, but to be clear I think it's fair to say Alembic is not going to build a bass differently depending on whether you prefer high or low action. They'll set it up specially if you ask, but there's no need for a fundamentally different design.
 
You need a strong, uniform neck (all frets exactly the same height, no weird twist or anything), securely attached to the body, but you'll get this on any Alembic. On a lesser instrument, the frets may not be even, or more likely you'll get some bumps or dips in the neck itself, particularly with higher tension strings (and more truss rod), which will give you buzz in some particular locations before others, so you won't be able to get the overall action as low.
 
If you want to push the limits of low action, you'll have less tolerance for environmentally-induced shifts of the neck, so you would probably benefit a little - but only in the sense of having to adjust it less often - from a neck-through design and having some laminates in the neck.
 
Frankly, you can meet these basic requirements for a lot less money than an Alembic will cost you, if you know what to look for and have enough patience. But Mica is absolutely right, that if you just walk into a guitar shop and try things, most of them aren't going to be set up very well, and even if they are it will probably be with a more medium action, so that it's easier to play for an average customer.
 
(Mikey's case of having the bridge as low as it will go sounds a bit extreme - I suspect something is wrong here, not that the bass wasn't built to support low action.)
 
Setup: Joey is absolutely right, you'll never be happy until you learn to do your own setups (unless maybe you have a dedicated guitar tech who understands and can mimic your playing style perfectly...). It's *not* that hard, just takes a little time to learn, and is definitely worthwile. And like he says, settling on a set of strings is a big help. Once you get things to your liking, about all you should need to do is adjust the truss rods a little for seasonal (or traveling) changes, whereas switching to a completely different set of strings is probably going to cost you several hours, over the course of a few days, by the time you get everything tweaked just right again (bridge height, intonation, pickup height, in addition to neck relief).
 
Let's try to clear up any remaining confusion about neck radius vs. relief. When you sight up the neck, radius is the curve you see perpendicular to the length of the neck, i.e. in the usual case the middle strings stick up higher than the outer strings, and the neck radius (and bridge and nut) generally follow this curve. Classical guitars, and Trip's bass, are flat in this respect and may be said to have zero, or perhaps infinite radius (sorry Mica, I'm not sure 180 degrees is an appropriate term here).
 
Unless you have a very unusual playing style, you almost certainly want a more typical radius of 12 to 15 inches (12 is the Alembic standard, which seems just fine for most people). Neck radius is absolutely *not* related to action, assuming everything else is properly constructed and adjusted.
 
Relief is the term used to describe the concave bow you see sighting up the length of the neck. A neck which is setup perfectly straight is said to have zero relief - you could lay a straightedge across the frets and every one would just barely touch.
 
You normally want a *tiny* bit of relief (even perfectly straight Joey says you let just enough relief back in...). One way of measuring this is to hold down a string at the 1st and 24th frets, and then measure the gap between the string and the 7th fret (not quite the middle - normally you'll get a little more bow up towards the end of the neck, which is where you want it anyway).
 
Buy a cheap capo to hold down the strings at the first fret, use one hand to hold down a string at the 24th, and then try slipping a playing card between the string and 7th fret, without displacing the string. Personally, I'm happiest with just a touch more relief than one card, but definitely not two (my deck of 52 measures 15mm, so my card is not quite .012 inches). You should check both outer strings, and they should be close (though if necessary, favor more on the fat strings because they're going to move more).
 
Note that by holding down the string at both ends, we've eliminated nut and bridge height as factors. Other than putting on the strings you want to use, the first step is always to adjust the truss rod tension to get the relief pretty close to right, and then you can start working on the other stuff. I'm not going to get into that, just wanted to give you some idea that this really isn't very hard - by all means pick up a book and give it a try. I never even considered letting someone else set up my basses or guitars for over 25 years.
 
If you were trying to characterize the action you prefer, I think the most useful measurements would be the amount of neck relief, and the gaps between the outermost strings at the 24th fret, and possibly the strings you use. (Nut height mostly affects only notes at the first few frets, so it's somewhat less critical assuming it's not grossly off.)
 
Just to throw out some numbers, I'm using Thomastik jazz flatwounds, relief is about .013-.015, and string height averages about 3/32 at the 24th fret (mine happens to be fretless Carvin). I play fingerstyle with a fairly light touch, and consider this to be moderately, but not extremely, low action. (Mica - would you share with us the specs for your standard medium height setup?)
 
String tension: is determined *solely* by scale length, pitch, and the design of the string. Nothing else matters. In fact, the only thing that matters about the string itself is the mass. There's a good discussion of the math involved at http://www.mcdonaldstrings.com/String_tensions.pdf
 
(The problem with doing the calculations yourself is that you really need to know the mass of the string, but if the manufacturer publishes the tensions you can work backwards to calculate that. I did this myself when trying to figure out how much more tension I'd see by putting a 34 scale set on a 35 instrument.)
 
Note that what counts about the string is the mass, not necessarily the gauge. There's enough variation in materials and design, even between different types of sets from the same manufacturer, that two strings of the same gauge may result in different tensions (a flat wound will typically have more mass than a roundwound of the same gauge, because it's filled in with metal).
 
Anyway, assuming the same style of string from some particular manufacturer, putting the same set on a longer scale instrument (with the same tuning) will increase the string tension, as will using heavier gauges of the same strings, either of which will allow for slightly lower action because the string excursion will be less (for identical plucking, etc.).  
 
Note that this does *not* imply that a 32 scale instrument is going to have less tension or higher action than a 34 - you'd most likely use a set of strings which were designed for that scale length, and they'll probably be smaller gauge or otherwise constructed somewhat differently to have less mass.
 
String tension is simple physics. Assuming the same scale length and tuning, a given set of strings will have exactly the same tension no matter who builds the bass or how it's constructed (assuming you don't make the neck out of rubber or something).
 
Playing style: it seems everyone understands that if you play hard, you'll need more neck relief and/or higher action and/or more string tension to avoid buzz, and that if you want low action, you're going to have to be gentle with it. But there are some slightly off-topic comments in here worth elaborating on.
 
Michael W. mentions he's noticed that the whole length of the string has different harmonics depending on where you pluck it, which is an excellent observation. In fact, the distribution of harmonics you get also depends on *how* you pluck it - if you pluck it in the same position, you'll get a wider or richer set of harmonics by using the broad side of your thumb (a wide plectrum) as compared to the sharp edge of a pick, because it excites the string differently.
 
Now, Bryan mentions that he likes to play over the bridge pickup, and wonders about moving it to a place where he prefers the tension of the string, and whether that would affect the sound. Yes, moving the pickup would affect the sound, but we need to consider that as a completely separate issue from where the string is plucked. It's really not at all like putting your mouth closer to the microphone, for example.
 
Where and how you pluck determines the relative strengths of the different harmonics which are set in motion. Pickup position determines which of those harmonics are heard, and at what relative strength. If you put a pickup under the 12th fret and played an open string, it would not pick up the 2nd harmonic at all, because the 2nd harmonic has a node (a place where the string doesn't move) right there in the middle of the string. (You know this, of course, because you can play the harmonic and actually leave your finger on the string as it continues to sound, right?)
 
So generally what you want to do is position the pickups at positions which are a good compromise for picking up a wide mix of harmonics. And it's always a compromise, because if you did the best you could for an open string, it would be quite a bit different as you fretted notes higher up the neck, and the harmonic nodes start getting more bunched up.
 
There's some interesting stuff on pickup placement and harmonic sensitivity at http://www.till.com/articles/PickupResponse/ - you can skip the math and just look at the pictures, and get a pretty good idea of what's going on here.
 
For anyone who wants to get really deep into how strings vibrate (among other things), a classic reference is Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics by Arthur Benade. Unfortunately it barely mentions electric guitars (and not solid bodies at all), but many of the principles of pianos and violins are relevant to some degree. (Caution: it's a pretty serious book - I've read it twice now, and still haven't grasped everything in there...).
 
I know this has been an outrageously long post. I hope it's helpful, but if you feel I've wasted your time or space, go ahead and let me have it.
-Bob

Mark DuFresne (markus)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2002, 05:59:20 PM »
Geez Bob. Waste of time? No way!
 
Was there ANYBODY out there who just couldn't help reading Bob's post to the end?
 
Mark

Michael Paskel (Mikey) (pookeymp)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2002, 07:18:55 PM »
I certainly couln't stop reading it...I was in the middle of watching ER and decided to check the club real quick during commercials...but I can't leave now...I think I'm gonna re-read it to make sure I got it all.
 
Mikey/

Paul Lindemans (palembic)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2002, 02:16:47 AM »
Well Bob,
 
I didn't read it but it was the second info of the club that I immediately printed out to be with my bass in a plastic envelope. (The first printout was the post of Mica about how to tweak the humcancelling device with the four small screws on the back of a SI or SII).
Great info!
For Bob (and all inputs her in this club) 3 x Hurray!.
Bob it was defintely more than 2 cents!
 
Paul

Wayne McLemore (wayne)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2002, 07:04:19 AM »
I'm with Paul - this got copied into Word and printed out for a permanent file.
 
Thanks Bob!!!
 
C-Ya..........wayne

Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #27 on: November 15, 2002, 08:31:39 AM »
Fantastic post, Bob.
 
Now let me make sure I'm clear on a few issues, by asking a few probing questions... I'll spread these over several posts.
 
I may be off base, so I appreciate anyone who can help me to see the error(s) in my thinking.  
 
Bob said:
>> to be clear I think it's fair to say Alembic is not going to build a bass differently depending on whether you prefer high or low action.

Joey Wilson (bigredbass)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2002, 10:43:18 AM »
Bryan:
 
While Ken builds a nice guitar, the graphite reinforcements are so 'unique'?  You can buy these at several luthier supply houses, and are common in lots of basses (Carvin, for instance).
 
There is no more rigid neck than graphite (Steinberger, Modulus, the ALEMBIC graphite neck instruments from the 70's).  Doesn't guarantee low action.  ALEMBIC also offers the stiffest lamination I can think of:  The ebony/maple laminated necks with the ebony fingerboard. None of these guarantee low action just from the stiffness.
 
Filing frets is not the same as smaller frets.  Filing frets is a bad idea:  If you ever need a fret filing to eliminate worn spots, you have nothing left.
 
The adjustable nut needs fo follow the curve of the fingerboard radius for the best action.  Slotting the nut when built handles that best.
 
Bob:
 
The bigredbass:
    15 thousandths over the first fret, 20  
    thousandths at the twelfth under the B, 15    
    under the G, and 3/32 over the 24th fret  
    both sides, 5/16 over each pickup on both  
    sides.  I prefer a little taller nut height  
    to set up the rest of the neck, and use  
    automotive-style feeler guages.
 
Once you have your Alembic, when the time comes, the adjustable nut and twin truss rods make adjustments SO easy.  I'm SO spoiled by these features. Congratulations.
 
Best Regards,
Joey Wilson  

Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)

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EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2002, 11:14:05 AM »
Hey Joey,
 
Thanks for the input!
 
When I talked to Ken, he said that his graphite (or perhaps an alloy used in his neck) was indeed a special stock (used by the Space Program), and that he rejects material that the other companies use.  At least that's what I understood him to say.  
 
Did I understand you right in that you use automotive-style feeler gauges to measure the distances?  And how did you do it exactly?
 
Thanks Joey!  This board is INCREDIBLE!  I've learned more in the past week than I have in years of talking with other bassists.
 
Bryan