EVERYONE... chime in on my bass action dilemna. Looking for advice (Mica?)

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

My bottom line is that I'm looking for a bass that can be set-up with very low, buttery action with no fret buzz.  I've played a few in my life, but they're hard to come by.  The ones I've played are all owned by professionals and not sitting in music stores.
 
The first part of the problem is that I realize that many bassists do NOT like their action really low.  That means even high-end basses (Alembic, Fodera, etc.) tend to ship with mediocre action.  I've now played hundreds of basses in music stores and most range from fair to pathetic in this department.
 
Perhaps the best input I've received in this area was from a guy who works at Larry Morgan Music in Dallas (Phil McNeese).  He likes the same feel that I do on bass - very low action.  And he owns both a 5-string Alembic and 4-string Fodera that are incredible - perhaps the nicest set-ups I've played on.
 
When I asked Phil about this, he said: ?I simply won?t buy a bass unless it CAN be set-up with very low action.?  Now he has the privilege of working in a music shop and can mess with all of the different high-end basses that come through (adjusting the truss rods, filing the nuts, adjusting the bridge etc.) to see if a particular bass CAN be set up very low without buzzing, but I obviously don't have that ability (nor do 99.9% of bassists).
 
When I asked him how someone like me can know if the bass they buy or order will take a very low-action set-up, he said ?you can?t.?  Apparently each bass is unique and there's no way Alembic (or any other company) can tell ahead of time how low their action can go before it buzzes (is that correct?).
 
So, the ideal situation would be to find the bass you like in a shop (one that?s already set-up by someone and feels great) - but that could take a lifetime to find.  After all, if many players don?t want a real low action, that means factories won?t ship them that way and shops won't set them up that way.
 
SO, is the average Joe just stuck?  Do I take out a loan, and plop down $5K to have Alembic build me a bass with no guarantee that it will play the way I'd like?  
 
I've thought about calling the Alembic folks and talking about this issue - but decided to drop a thread and get some input from others as well.  Maybe Alembic could purposely build a bass from the outset which could take a very low action and assure me that I'll like it???  OR, is this just an area with no guarantee (roll of the dice)?
 
Chime in, folks.  There's no doubt about the Alembic sound being amazing - but that's not the issue I'm struggling with.  I'll even sacrifice the tone I like (if I must) to get the right feel.
 
Thanks for taking the time to hear me out...
Bryan

[Michael DeVincenzo (jlpicard)]

How low is low enough? Have you ever measured the action on your basses so we(the club) can get an idea. For me certain techniques work better with the action raised just a little( slap and tap) When I obtained my Europa from Alembic the action was incredibly low. I play with a fairly light touch so that works out well for fingerstyle but I have let the action raise just a touch on its own after a seasonal change so that I have reached a happy medium for all playing techniques. The lowest action I have ever found on a bass right off the wall in a music store was on a Warwick Infinity model. A dust mite doing the limbo could'nt make it under the E string if his little life depended on it!!! Problem with action that low is it won't stay buzz free very long. Oh well. MIKE
P.S. Maybey graphite construction would offer a possibility?

[Michael Walker (rockandroller)]

just a guess, but i BET if you sent $5,000 to Alembic, and asked them specifically for a bass with low action, you would GET a bass with low action.
 
that said, i like to play with the lowest possible action too, but I dont know the exact spec for physically lowest possible action on a bass guitar- maybe 3/32 @ 24th fret? (or is it to be spec'd at the 12th fret?) Anyway I imagine that spec would vary depending on string guage.. if you like really light (loose) strings for easy string bending i think the strings will flap more and require higher action. Also its probably dependent on scale length.. you have raised a VERY interesting question!
 
Hmmm - just checked, and 2.0mm is the string-to-fret height of my Beatle Bass's E string (@21st fret) - and it still feels a touch 'high' to me

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

I really do think this is a very interesting and pertinent question to discuss.
 
My bass doesn't have very good action (unless I set it so low that it will buzz like crazy), so that spec won't help.  And I have no way to know how high/low the action was on those basses that I played that had very nice action.
 
I would think there are SO many variables (scale length, string tension, string size, curvature of the neck, width of neck, etc.) that it might be difficult to come up with exact specs that would remain true on all basses.  But I could be wrong.  This may be question for Mica to tackle.
 
I suppose the big question is this:  
As the bass is constructed, can a manufacturer control how low a bass can be set-up without buzzing? Since I've played many high end basses (Alembic, Smith, Fodera, Tobias - you name it) that apparently could NOT be set very low, it makes me very suspect.
 
Now you may be right, Michael - Alembic might be up to the challenge of creating a bass that could definitely be set with very low action (without buzzing).  
 
BTW - how did you measure the action anyway?  To do that with any kind of specificity, wouldn't you need some special measuring tool?

[Simon Taylor (staylor)]

Maybe this is too obvious to point out, but I think the biggest influence on string buzz (aside from a neck that just needs truss-rod adjustment) with low action is going to be the player's style.  I received my Series II with extremely low action -- so low that the low B string had significant finger buzz (for me) when I picked up the bass.  Raise the action a bit and it was better, but I came to realize that the finger buzz problem on that low B string was more my playing style than issues with the neck.  I.e., you take a big fat string sitting _very_ close to the fingerboard and strike it hard, and you're going to get some buzz.  Think of it like this:  the horizontal profile of a string at rest is a flat plane, but a string that is resonating is not a flat plane, it is curved.  However, draw a straight line from nut to end of the fingerboard under any string, and you do have a line that sits (at a profile) in a flat plane, i.e. it is not curved.  So, lower the action enough, strike the string hard enough, and the string is going to hit the fingerboard (or the frets if you have them).
 
I spent the first 12 or 13 years playing a less than adequate bass through crappy gear and this taught me to play hard (and get lots of blisters on my fingers) and break bass strings.  It also meant, I always had to have a high action.  In the last couple years, as I've started to get gear (and now an incredible instrument!!) that gives me way more expression, I'm learning to strike the strings easier and let the lighter playing style clean up what's happening right on the instrument while letting the amplifier do its job too.
 
I think the downside is, your friend at the guitar shop is probably right.  On the upside, I agree with other posters, that if you go in on an Alembic and specify that you are looking for very low action, they'll work with you to get it.  Just be aware that your playing style may wreak a little reverse-limbo havoc upon the string buzz problem.
 
Finally, there's the inevitable setup issue.  From one climate to the next, a bass neck is going to move.  With this and the rest in mind, it might be worth your peace of mind to consider the  possibility of working more closely with folks at Alembic by planning one or two visits to the factory.  One to sit down, try some basses and talk action with their setup folks, and another once your bass is built and has been setup.  That way you can give the best input, get some insight into manufacturing and setup issues related to action, and finally feel that action before it gets shipped to a completely different climate (where the neck will move some).  It's not that far from TX -- I made a trip down to Santa Rosa myself last year all the way from Juneau, Alaska and there's not even a road out of Juneau ;-)

[Simon Taylor (staylor)]

I forgot to mention (though it hardly needs saying), the folks at Alembic are masters of customization.  If you invest the time to define your dream, they will tell you if they can build it.

[Daniel Tracey (dannobasso)]

This summer I played Trip Wamsley's 8 string Alembic bass at summer Namm. The action was extremely low but stable. The neck was very wide with a zero radius. I also have a stick bass and the feeling was the same. You can't really get lower than that.  Whatever you want in low action, you will have to keep up the maintaince. Learn how to set up a bass the way you like. Most cats will only do what you will do anyway and charge you for it even if they don't get it just right. Wood moves, expands, contracts, different woods move at different rates, temp, humidity etc.  Also if you get down on it, it's gonna growl! Round wounds, ground wounds, flats, all behave differently, gauges affect everything. Change the strings, change the tension, adjust the neck. But it's all part of the game. Those of us who love Alembics know that any quality instrument has to be cared for. I have eight and make sure that they recieve the attention they need. I just turned on a Fender Jazz player to my excel 5. He didn't play his bass the whole night at the gig. All the other guys on the gig heard the difference right away. I made sure that I checked out the action before I handed it to him. He wants one right away. Mica and company have made the most unusual requests come to life. I think that they can make a bass with low action in mind. Perhaps ebony deluxe laminates will help? Sorry about the ramble but I have a deep love and commitment to these instruments and this company. The word mediocre is so far from my experiences with my instruments. Must have hit a nerve!

[Kris Stewart (elwoodblue)]

I remember Susan telling of a bass made for John Entwistle that had low, low action. If I recall correctly; after John's specified set-up requirements, the bass would buzz by all who played it at the factory...when John( with his sensitive touch) got a chance to evaluate the bass and set-up...the bass played clear without buzz.
 You might want to find the specs for that bass for clues towards your goal.  
 Kris

[Valentino Villevieille (valvil)]

To throw in?my 2 cents...
 
Simon, Daniel and the 2 Michaels, all raised excellent points.  
I'd like to add my belief that playing with low action really needs a very soft right hand playing.  I go for the lowest action I can get myself, and I tend to play very lightly( not slow , mind you unless that's what the piece calls for); when my friends play my  basses, though, they invariably buzz, because their right hand playing is much heavier than mine. Mica once told me that most of the basses Alembic made for John Entwistle had zero radius (like Trip's 8 string Daniel mentioned) and extra low action, with the string almost on the frets, and that  he actually had a very light right hand touch.
  As  I wrote this I see that Kris just  came up with the same story...
 
I'd be very surprised if  Alembic couldn't do it for you.
 
Valentino

[mica]

Pretty much everything has been said about the action issue above, but I'll join in as well!  
 
In my experience, Simon's observation is true: to play with low action you have to play like you're playing with low action. I have seen players who want to play aggressively with very low action, and seem surprised when the string bottoms out on the top of the fret. You can't get around physics.  
 
As far as mediocre action, I just can't agree with that. Even though we make each bass with very low action, we do raise it to a more medium height before shipping since that is what most players prefer (unless there has been a specific request).  
 
If a customer has a specific request for low action (i.e. a measurement), we can accept the job. It's really how we make all our basses anyway. But you will have to learn how to fine tune it later. With very low action, you will notice even the slightest change in the neck. It's no big deal, just make the adjustments.  
 
If you really mess around with string gauges you'll be making lots of adjustments as Daniel noted.  
 
Phil's 5-string was custom ordered as far as I know - I think he ordered it from Marcus before he started working there.  
 
I also think what you've observing in the stores Brian is that most stores do not maintain basses like a professional player does.  
 
I read recently in Bass Player's Entwistle cover story that he said I like my strings on the other side of the frets Got a big grin over that one!
 
Long and the short of it... with low action comes much responsibility. I also know of no bass we made that could not be set up to the customer's needs - if they didn't involve breaking the laws of physics, that is!

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

Thanks All!!!
 
 
Well, these posts have really given me a lot of good information.  Let me throw out a few more specific questions, though.
 
1.  Wouldn't you agree with Phil that some basses (Alembics included) can take a lower action set-up (without buzzing) BETTER than others?  In other words, all Alembics (or any other bass) are not created equal in their ability to go low without buzzing.
 
2.  From what I'm hearing, a zero radius neck is a plus for lower action.  I'm assuming this is a perfectly flat neck, correct?  What are the drawbacks to such a neck?  Are there any standard model Alembics that come with this style of neck?
 
Appreciate the help,
Bryan

[Paul Lindemans (palembic)]

Hi All,
 
here my two pennies (the problem is living in another time zone with a holiday I can check my mails so ...I know ...I'm late!)
 
The neck of my SII 5 string is wide and a play with low action. I have to adjust it regularly with the changing of the seaons. It's something you learn to do.
I never play with a really flat = no curved neck.  I discovered that having a (slight) curve enables the (low) strings to move better in lower playing positions but eases playing in higher position.
The problem is that I cannot give my bass to other players in use: they always buzz. It's matter of touch. I have a friend who says that I'm more carressing my strings.
Though personally I don't hate a buzz. It's quite normal I think and usefull. If you hear an acoustic upright at play you also gets a buzz and a lot of wood noises. A littlle buzz adds to the bass-sound defintion (my opinion).
 
As for Alembic: every Alembic I played (I had 3 and played a lot more) had the same characteristic: I could get a low action, and lower than any other brand I used.
On the other hand: with most of the basses I played I was able to get a fairly low action but never with that comfort as the Alembics I played.
 
Paul

[Joey Wilson (bigredbass)]

Brian:
 
No the average Joe (that's me, by the way) is NOT stuck when it comes to action.  I've been playing and learning for 25 years, and this is what I can tell you about all this:
 
Neck-thru basses always beat bolt-neck basses. The strings are pulling against the length of the bass, instead of the length of the neck.  Besides stability, this does great things for the sound (better fundamentals) and sustain (more).
 
Cheap basses can be good, but they're never great.
 
Low action never worked till I learned to let the volume knob do the work:  You can't BEAT a bass and expect low action and no buzz.
 
I had to find a string set I could stay with.  I couldn't keep going from RotoSound to GHS to D'Addario without chasing the action around after every change.
 
My ALEMBIC allowed me to freely experiment with action because the dual truss rods and the adjustable nut allow a 'fine-tuneability' available nowhere else.  Couple this with the stability offered by the multiple laminate / ebony fingerboard neck, and action adjustment became almost child's play.  Try this with a Precision Bass:  How many times do you want to pull the pickguard to get to the truss rod or replace the nut 'till you get it right?
 
Those multiple laminations make the neck much more stable; that is, the wood moves much less over time due to temperature and humidity.  And different woods combined are better than multiple laminations of the same wood.  
 
I NEVER PERFECTED MY ACTION UNTIL I LEARNED TO DO IT MYSELF.  There are great guitar techs out there, yet few of them understand that a bass is MUCH HARDER to get low and right than a guitar.  Read the Alembic tech section, buy Dan Erlewine's book, whatever it takes.
 
My hands 'learned' to feel action changes, and my eyes 'learned' to sight down the neck as I got better at doing it myself.
 
A neck works best a perfectly straight.  Most people are gonna tell you 'it's got to have bow in it'.  They are wrong.  You only let just enough relief back in to cure any buss that's left.
 
I prefer a larger radius (flatter) fingerboard.  I would not want a FLAT fingerboard.
 
What to buy?  Get something that feels right, right neck feel, right weight, looks cool.  
 
And believe me: I've played them all, and there is no better bass built by better people who treat their product like their children than ALEMBIC.
 
Joey Wilson

[mica]

For Bryan -
 
1. Sure, they aren't all equal, they are handmade, by their nature each one is unique. But the action can be set very low in qualified hands. Again, if you have a specific requirement, just inform us of the measurement before we build.
 
2. I suppose it's more accurate to describe Trip's fingerboard as a 180 degree radius, or completely flat. That isn't a description of the relief of the neck, but the surface in which the frets are installed. All our basses and guitars come standard 12 inch fingerboard radius.  
 
I asked the James and Jon in the setup department about advantages/disadvantages of no radius. They report that there's no disadvantage, but it does feel different to play. Especially for guitar, the radius makes some chords easier to play. I would not recommend you get a custom made instrument with a flat fingerboard before you try it.  
 
The fingerboard radius is independent of the action. Have you been able to determine the action you prefer? Maybe Phil can measure it on his bass and gimme a call.

[Bryan Threlkeld (vikingman)]

GREAT advice!  Keep em' coming.  These posts have really helped me out.  Now if I could only get my hands on these different variations.  It's one thing to talk about it, but it's quite another to actually feel the different specs we're talking about.
 
What is Dan Erlewine's book about (and what's the title of the book)?  And are Alembics the only basses with adjustable nuts?  That sounds like a great idea - you'd think others would clue in.
 
Mica, I'm VERY impressed with your willingness to do whatever it takes to make sure I get a bass I'm happy with.  I've contacted other dealers who just tell me that their basses are the best - BUT they won't customize because they have the perfect bass and they know what's best for the customer.
 
So my next dilemna is playing on enough Alembics to get a feel for what I need.  
 
I'll check with Phil regarding his Fodera and Alembic basses and see what radius he has and the measurements of his action as well.
 
Thanks again - and keep tossing advice my way.  I like to hear a variety of different takes on the issue.
 
Bryan