Cold Rain and Snow question...

[glocke]

I know there are some pretty competent players of GD music here, so am hoping to get clear answer on this as it's one of those simple tunes with a weird section in it I just don't entirely get.


In Cold Rain and snow, during the first guitar interlude (video at that time stamp posted below)


What is the timing of that section ?


Jdarks has it listed as the following:
Pickup
1 measure of 6/4
1 measure of 2/4
2 measures of 4/4
1 measure of 6/4


http://jdarks.com/files/ColdRainAndSnow2.pdf


theres a dead and co. version out there that I used as a reference for learning that part and have just pretty much copied one of Oteils lines when i play this with others, but it would really be more useful to understand whats going on.  Im really hard pressed to count anything in that section as 6/4, and instead end up counting everything as 4/4 with an extra measure of D in that section that isn't on the verses.

[edwardofhuncote]

Also curious about this one, as I've long wondered whether Jerry got his inspiration directly from (Bill) Monroe, or from generational contemporary followers... guys who worked for Monroe, like Peter Rowan for instance. Those little extra measures happened quite often in his music, and they would have had to learn that. These days, it usually gets kinda' auto-corrected out of mainstream bluegrass.


Interestingly enough, I have also been borrowing from Oteil's lines on "Cold Rain & Snow", but just because I like them and they work for my particular need.    (my source, FWIW, was the MSG show on 11/1/19)

[glocke]

Also curious about this one, as I've long wondered whether Jerry got his inspiration directly from (Bill) Monroe, or from generational contemporary followers... guys who worked for Monroe, like Peter Rowan for instance. Those little extra measures happened quite often in his music, and they would have had to learn that. These days, it usually gets kinda' auto-corrected out of mainstream bluegrass.


Interestingly enough, I have also been borrowing from Oteil's lines on "Cold Rain & Snow", but just because I like them and they work for my particular need.    (my source, FWIW, was the MSG show on 11/1/19)

My Oteil reference for that tune is Folsom Field 07/02/16..i think..

In general when i get stumped on a particular Dead tune and just don't exactly get what Phil is doing I'll listen to see what Oteil is doing since he plays things straighter/in a more logical manner than Phil. 

Those extra measures the Dead throw into tunes have always left me curious if it's just something that happened "organically", meaning they just played something that sounded cool and it just happened to have an extra measure or two in there, or if it was a conscious thought process.

Theres a live version i heard of Hell in a Bucket that has an extra measure thrown in at one point as well...the studio recording doesn't have that extra measure in there.

[edwin]

Hm. Good question. I never counted it, just felt it, and have always played counterpoint lines that end up just being what I'm feeling at the time. Having played it since before Dead & Co. started happening, I just played along with a few GD versions and took it from there. They have a lot of sections that are pretty idiosyncratic and in this case, I feel it in 4/4.

Similar to the bridge in Greatest Story Ever Told. I'm not sure exactly how that would get counted out, but it just feels a certain way.

[hankster]

I’m with Gregory on this. There is a deep tradition of Americana where the phrase, not the meter, governs. Carter family music for example is full of “extra” measures. We think they are extra. They thought they were normal.

[cozmik_cowboy]

I’m with Gregory on this. There is a deep tradition of Americana where the phrase, not the meter, governs. Carter family music for example is full of “extra” measures. We think they are extra. They thought they were normal.

Indeed.  And "El Paso" has a half-verse.  As the esteemed Mr. Hopkins once said, "Lightin' change when Lightnin' wanna change!"

Peter

[rv_bass]

Doesn’t Loose Lucy have something like that going on too?  Maybe not, it’s been a while since i played that one.

[lbpesq]

I’ve been playing Cold Rain and Snow for years, and usually sing lead (my wife still gives me grief about the opening line).  I never thought about the timing.  Like Edwin I have always felt it with no problem.  There are certainly Dead tunes with extra measures here and there - it took me a while to get Wharf Rat down as the timing between lines changes during the song - but CR&S seems fairly easy - I like to play it as a warm up song.  The only twist is that the timing of the chord changes is different between the verse and the chorus. 

Bill, tgo

[glocke]

I’ve been playing Cold Rain and Snow for years, and usually sing lead (my wife still gives me grief about the opening line).  I never thought about the timing.  Like Edwin I have always felt it with no problem.  There are certainly Dead tunes with extra measures here and there - it took me a while to get Wharf Rat down as the timing between lines changes during the song - but CR&S seems fairly easy - I like to play it as a warm up song.  The only twist is that the timing of the chord changes is different between the verse and the chorus. 

Bill, tgo

Wharf Rat I never had a problem with...

That first guitar solo in CR&S for whatever reason gave me issues, largely in part because a lot of the groups I play it with weren't 100% solid on it..Some would try and play it the way the Dead do, others would play that section the way the verses are (my biggest beef with "Jam Bands" is that they often just jam through the harder/weirder parts).
 

[edwin]

Doesn’t Loose Lucy have something like that going on too?  Maybe not, it’s been a while since i played that one.

Depends on which way you play it. Early on, there were a couple of bars of 7 (before the IV chord and then going back to the top of the form). Later they did it all in 4/4.

[cje]

That Cold Rain break certainly feels straight 4/4 to me. Counting it out comfirms it.