Author Topic: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound  (Read 4373 times)

SkyPilot

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Alembic speaker cabinet from Grateful Dead "Tie Dye" Wall of Sound
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2019, 12:18:40 PM »
Interesting discussion. Do you have a photo you can post of your cabinet?

Having a friend with camera come over soon and take pictures, will also get the outside dimension cabinet measurements.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 12:23:05 PM by SkyPilot »
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edwin

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2019, 03:45:12 PM »

Cool pics, Rob.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen Jerry play the Strat with the numbers inlaid on the neck before.  Interesting bridge on that one, more like a Les Paul!  And I don’t believe I’ve seen Bobby playing an SG before, either. 




Bobby played an SG for quite a bit of 1973. The picture with Jerry playing the Erlewine Strat (with the numbers on the fretboard) is from 5/13/73, where Jerry played that, Alligator, and the pre-Wolf Irwin guitar, which is the only known picture of him playing that guitar.




edwin

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2019, 04:00:05 PM »
To me, the Wall of Sound was the giant wall with speakers stacked up to 32’ high (I’ve been told the 32’ stack was for Phil’s E string which put out a 32’ foot wave, crest to crest, and Phil wanted to put out the whole wave, not just a piece of it.  I don’t know if that’s true, but it sure is a great story).

That was the reason because it was a line array, as originally theorized by Harry Olson in the 1930s in his book/treatise (of which I would be happy to send anyone a pdf copy- warning: lots of math). The way it works is that when you have a stack of speakers one wide and taller than the longest wavelength you want to throw, the physics of the propagation changes. Normal speakers propagate as a sphere or portion thereof and fall off exponentially (twice as a far is four times quieter) and send the sound all over the place. With a line array, the sound falls off linearly (or closer to it) and spreads horizontally, but far less vertically (so less spill into the rafters and reflecting off the floor). They were years ahead of their time and now all major PAs are designed as line arrays, EXCEPT for the bass, which seems sad. The low end benefits the most from the use of a line array, but it's still a little less than efficient to cart around 40 foot stacks. I've heard it done once, with the PA the GD brought to Oxford Plains in 1988. The low end was profound.

Dave Rat, the sound guy from the Red Hot Chili Peppers, did a bunch of experiments with how to project low end efficiently, including low end line arrays, and came up with something that requires fewer boxes that operates like a cardioid mic does, by having additional subs behind the regular subs and playing with the phase to cancel the sound behind the subs and focus the propagation to the front.

I don't doubt that the speakers for sale here are GD speakers, but I don't think they are the ones shown behind Keith in the pictures. Lining up the 2x12 cabs next to it, there's no way that 4 12s could fit. However, Jerry and, I think, Bobby, used 4x12 tie dye cabs in '72 for their guitars. As SkyPilot notes, there were many cabs that came and went. I don't know of any new cabinets after 1972 that were put onstage with tie dyes. Those, AFAIKT, all were made in 1971 into early 1972. By the end of 1972, the new cabs that were introduced were all open faced.

SkyPilot

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Alembic speaker cabinet from Grateful Dead "Tie Dye" Wall of Sound
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2019, 07:41:25 PM »
( edwin ) I don't doubt that the speakers for sale here are GD speakers,

For clarification I referred to the cabinet as "an original Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound project."  I do not know what GD's arrangement was with Alembic or if GD actually owned everything Alembic produced related to the project during that time?  Nor can I say that the GD ever actually played using this particular cabinet, only that it was produced by Alembic during that Pre-1974 Wall project development period.

I had a long discussion with Wolf who is knowledgeable about Alembic's construction of the GD speaker cabinets from that period and all the nuances are present regarding: the type of wood, machined aluminum speaker mounting clips, hex head bolts, input plug arrangement on the back, tie dye speaker cover, etc.  All of those criteria are present. That's about all that I can factually say at this time.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 07:44:43 PM by SkyPilot »
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sonicus

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2019, 08:32:03 PM »
  **As discussed it would be logical given the specs and history,  to access that the cabinet in question could be of Alembic origin in my opinion . **

 It would be prudent to ascertain what the circuit integrity and load impedance are . As well as to the individual speaker impedance and wiring schematic as to parallel / series parallel specifications . A simple DCR ( DC RESISTANCE) measurement can reveal such specification as a minimum test and precaution for a sound test and standard reference for load impedance matching to a prospective amplifier. In my opinion it would be prudent to test the speakers  individually with an audio signal generator that has  provisions for output potential control.    I would start at a safe frequency of 1000 Hz at low amplitude and descend downward  to  aprox 40 Hz slowly increasing the output with great caution and observing the excursion of the cone to make sure that it is not binding at the point of the voice-coil and magnet structure . This procedure I would repeat individually for each speaker in my opinion . I cannot guarantee or warrant that this procedure will not result in any undesirable  results or damage due to any oxidation if it is present which is possible do to the length of storage time without use.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 08:33:54 PM by sonicus »

cozmik_cowboy

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2019, 09:21:14 PM »
Bill & Greg's posts 3 & 4 up show once again why we need a "Like" button!

Peter
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SkyPilot

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Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's "Tie Dye" Wall of Sound
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2019, 09:28:27 PM »
sonicus  **As discussed it would be logical given the specs and history, to access that the cabinet in question could be of Alembic origin in my opinion . **

Thanx alot for the follow up Wolf.  In the wide matrix of possibilities I suppose it could be argued "as a possibility" that this cabinet is a one off "exact copy of an Alembic GD speaker cabinet" however for obvious reasons the probability of that is extremely low. Since I'm not aware of any "Alembic GD speaker cabinet" certification centers there is no way to ever ascertain it was made by Alembic with absolute certainty however that same "lack of certification" argument could apply to thousands of things and could be argued endlessly I suppose?

sonicus  It would be prudent to ascertain what the circuit integrity and load impedance are. As well as to the individual speaker impedance and wiring schematic as to parallel / series parallel specifications ......

Your testing regimen as stated would certainly be the way to go however such an undertaking is far beyond my skill set nor do I have the equipment necessary to perform such an analysis.


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sonicus

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2019, 10:09:28 PM »
In my observations and experience with such"  Front mounted  Birch Plywood Genre speaker cabinets  with aluminum machined and extruded speaker retainers "  ; there were different variations in production from various sources .
There were those sold by Alembic at the old  60 Brady Location . There were ones that were made specifically for the GD Wall Of Sound . There were those sold by Bag End . Later the ones sold by Hard Truckers . Many of these share basic characteristics such as being mostly infinate baffles that used front mounted design and having been built using Birch Ply wood with high end cabinet building techniques and having bullnose routed edges . As well they  shared the same genre of aluminum machined or extruded speaker retainers . Not all of the latter were GD cabinets although they shared design specification . Among the examples that I gave it should be noted I have seen at least 4 different sets of measurements for single 15 inch infinate baffle cabinets among this discussed genre ,  all from different builders .
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 11:42:25 PM by sonicus »

SkyPilot

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Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's "Tie Dye" Wall of Sound
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2019, 10:42:56 PM »
In my observations and experience with such"  Front mounted  Birch Plywood Genre speaker cabinets  with aluminum machined and extruded speaker retainers "  ; there were different variations in production from various sources . There were those sold by Alembic as the  old  60 Brady Location . There were ones that were made specifically for the GD Wall Of Sound . There were those sold by Bag End . Later the ones sold by Hard Truckers . Many of these share basic characteristics such as being mostly infinate baffles that used front mounted design and having been built using Birch Ply would with high end cabinet building techniques and having bullnose routed edges . As well they  shared the same genre of aluminum machined or extruded speaker retainers . Not all of the latter were GD cabinets although they shared design specification . Among the examples that I gave it should be noted I have seen at least 4 different sets of measurements for single 15 inch infinate baffle among this discussed genre ,  all from different builders .

Well there you have it, with so many variations it is almost impossible to ascertain the provenance objectively with a reasonable degree of certainty. Too bad there are no "Alembic GD speaker cabinet" certification centers!  What I can say is during that period in Marin County when we were playing music, 1966-1973, other than the GD, we never encountered anything like Alembic cabinets, anywhere, they were unconventional and unique in our circles. This includes the period when I worked for the Sons of Champlin between 1970-1972.

The only reason I was exposed directly to Alembic was because an friend of mine knew someone who worked there. Mark was a lead guitarist, had a Fender Jaguar guitar, and Alembic did extensive modifications to his Jaguar.  When it was finished I went along with Mark to pick the guitar up at the Alembic shop, wonder whatever became of that modified Fender Jaguar?

« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:53:12 AM by SkyPilot »
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elwoodblue

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2019, 11:16:58 PM »
Mark was a lead guitarist, had a Fender Jaguar guitar, and Alembic did extensive modifications to his Jaguar.  When it was finished I went along with Mark to pick the guitar up at the Alembic shop, wonder whatever became of that modified Fender Jaguar?


That sounds like a cool platform for some Alembic mods...I'm imaging the thumbwheels with sealed mil spec pots, slick inlays...etc.
  ;D


sonicus

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2019, 11:58:10 PM »
Back in the day in a few bands and musicians also shared each others equipment in the way of amplifiers and speaker  cabinets of such genre , If I am not mistaken I have seen the DEAD , NRPS & HOT TUNA with similar cabinets or perhaps even the same cabinets from time to time :)  As Brothers of the local music scene this was common if I am not mistaken among a small close group of folks.  I was a big Sons of Chaplin fan just to mention as well however I did not see these types of cabinets at their performances .  I went to many of their shows with my friends ,  all of which were musicians . 

sonicus

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2019, 12:04:32 AM »
It would be a huge asset to have actual photos  and measurements that I can share with a few guitar players that I know to help facilitate concise communications to sell it for you . I would be happy to do that without compensation .
 

pauldo

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2019, 08:02:12 AM »
Bill & Greg's posts 3 & 4 up show once again why we need a "Like" button!

Peter

I LIke the idea of a Like button as it is like-able that I would use it frequently.  (Wolf’s post #34 makes me want him as my personal Electronic Technician - he knows stufff!  :D  ).


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SkyPilot

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Alembic speaker cabinet from Grateful Dead "Tie Dye" Wall of Sound
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2019, 08:10:59 AM »
sonicus - Back in the day in a few bands and musicians also shared each others equipment in the way of amplifiers and speaker  cabinets of such genre , If I am not mistaken I have seen the DEAD , NRPS & HOT TUNA with similar cabinets or perhaps even the same cabinets from time to time :)  As Brothers of the local music scene this was common if I am not mistaken among a small close group of folks.  I was a big Sons of Chaplin fan just to mention as well however I did not see these types of cabinets at their performances .  I went to many of their shows with my friends,  all of which were musicians .

One of the most versatile and rugged speaker cabinet systems the Sons of Champlin used in the early 1970s was the Electro Voice Eliminator cabinet. 

Photo here is the Sons of Champlin equipment set up, summer 1973. The only thing missing is Bill Bowen's drum set.
NOTE: you will see several "tie dye" Fender Twin Reverbs as well as a "tie dye" cabinet like mine to the right of Geoff Palmer's xylophones. Between the Twin Reverbs are two Electro Voice Eliminator cabinets.

Photo: Sons of Champlin Sunday, March 16, 1969: Speedway Meadow, Golden Gate Park, 25th Avenue at Fulton Street, San Francisco, California.  An afternoon free outdoor concert which lasted from 12 noon to 5:00pm and that was promoted by The 13th Tribe Presents. Also on the bill: MC5.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:04:44 AM by SkyPilot »
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Mark 63

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Re: Alembic speaker cabinet from the Grateful Dead's wall of sound
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2019, 02:52:48 PM »
Just to add a little more, my dad maintains that the Wall of Sound was really never built.

This is easily the most provocative statement I have read on this forum. If the Wall was some kind of compromise, the mind reels at the thought of what Ron and Owsley initially envisioned (with Phil egging them on).