Author Topic: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)  (Read 19153 times)

edwardofhuncote

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #120 on: September 07, 2019, 04:47:28 AM »
See... I knew that afterlength business was going to get me in trouble. ;D

Technically, Paul, you're measuring the oscillating sections of string on either side of the bridge, the most critical one being between the nut and bridge. Setting the afterlength, -to me at least- is an approximation based on what I see and hear. Violins are all about proportions, too much this, too little that, produces this response, diminishes that response, and so on. It matters a good deal more on a finer instrument. Most of the projects that come my way, I look at it as one of; get it close to where it belongs, listen for and wolfs or dead spots and adjust as necessary, very much like I would with setting a soundpost. Same formula, different operation.

*FWIW, I have found that the weight of the tailpiece has more influence on overall resonance than the string afterlength does. A heavy tailpiece tends to adsorb bass response.

If you ever get interested enough, Chuck Traeger's book is the definitive guide on upright bass repair and setup... put it on your Birthday or Christmas Wish list. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1892210061/ref=dbs_a_w_dp_1892210061

Some of craziness you see me post in here you won't find in there, but my shop as I've said before is the last resort for a lot of these basses. This King... it needed a new neck, that was the bottom line, and it wasn't worth a new neck. If it were in good condition, a 1940's American Standard upright might be worth a couple thousand dollars. This one was almost a total loss... I may have saved it, but I'm a hobbyist and I have time to fool with it between other work.

To answer Part 2, yes, your idea has been tried and proven. (although using braided wire rather than a bass string) Here is the full selection of tailpiece adjusters at Gollihur:  https://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/2037-TAILPIECE_CABLES_FOR_UPRIGHT_BASS_SELECTION.html

Personally, I don't like the commercially available Wittner type adjusters... had too many of them strip. They stretch for days. The braided wire ones just look kinda' crude to me. Mine are modeled after the ones Kay used... I just like brass better than steel rod stock. I can buy everything needed on the hardware aisle at the local Ace Hardware. ;)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 04:54:32 AM by edwardofhuncote »

growlypants

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 587
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #121 on: September 07, 2019, 06:24:15 AM »
I have a new name for ya'!  "EdwardofHuncote - the Master of Disaster!"
I used to think I was indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.

hammer

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3296
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #122 on: September 07, 2019, 08:14:58 AM »
"I may have saved it, but I'm a hobbyist."


You are far too modest my man.  Your postings and the creativity and ingenuity you use to bring instruments back from the dead are the highlight of the site for me. Given what you have done to make instruments playable again I'd suggest a positive take on "Dr. Frankenstein" might be a better way to describe the work you do to resurrect uprights.


 

edwardofhuncote

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #123 on: September 09, 2019, 10:49:46 AM »

Ha! Well fellas, I'll go with Frankenstein or Master of (many) Disaster(s), and wear it proud.  I like having a place to keep a journal of some memorable projects, and share a story or two.

I did get another piece of The King done this weekend, (will update that saga later) but had to pull off of it to do this cute little 1/4-sized Engelhardt bass. Setup work on upright basses is my bread-and-butter... it comes in the store weekly and my shop all the time. I can do one of these jobs in about 2 hours or less, start-to-finish, if there are no complications or distractions. This one was faster because I only had to replace a badly warped bridge. Ordinarily, I'd be cutting a new soundpost and filing nut slots, and restringing too, another half-hour, forty-five minutes worth.

The pictures are in chronological order, and kinda' tell the story, but;

Step 1. Mark and cut the feet and the arc on the bandsaw. This was much easier than usual, again, because I had the old bridge to use as a template. Note that I always save these pieces for shims to be used later if necessary.

Step 2. Sandpaper, scratchy side up on the top where the bridge will be. I mark the underside of the feet with pencil graphite and scrub until the feet are evenly fit to the contour of the top. (this is one of my favorite jobs!) Note how the bridge stands perfectly vertical, with a 90° angle at the back. In later pictures, you can see I've sanded and sculpted the bridge front face so that it slopes back. This sort of counters the action of string pull warping a bridge. (which is what happened to this one)

Step 3. I finish-sand bridges... I don't like sharp edges on my bridges. It doesn't matter, but I figure it takes an extra 15 minutes and looks nice for years, or until another new bridge gets cut for it. The Mouse palm sander and then some ultra-fine 400-grit smooths the raw maple out nice.

Step 4. Again, I had the old bridge to go by, but even if I didn't, I use this set of dividers to mark the bridge for filing the string slots. File about half the diameter of the string deep, and then pencil some graphite in the slot. Breaking an upright bass string is saddening.

Lastly, doublecheck the soundpost placement, restring, and call this job DONE. I played a couple tunes on this little cutie, and wow, the scale felt cramped. I checked with my rule and wouldn't you know, it's 35-1/4"... just a tick over an extra-long bass guitar.

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15595
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #124 on: September 09, 2019, 03:52:38 PM »
   :)

pauldo

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4901
  • What chaos . . . ?
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #125 on: September 10, 2019, 01:09:33 AM »
Awesome!

Paul (who ALWAYS breaks sharp edges unless otherwise noted... it is just the right thing to do!  ;) )

edwardofhuncote

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #126 on: September 11, 2019, 04:19:49 AM »
This will probably be the last post showing work on the King Mor-Tone, as there's finally nothing left to do but string it up and hope for the best. I'm out of the shop for a few days; got a short inpatient procedure scheduled for myself at the 'people shop' here in Salem, VA. tomorrow morning, and historically, I don't do well after anesthesia. Shouldn't be around sharp things, or forced to think critically. Check. This is not a good place to make bad decisions.

Anyway, the endpin/footrest on the King wasn't adjustable at all. (remember the drumstick?) That's not really uncommon on old basses... I guess players just carried their own personalized length of footrest with them to gigs. I didn't have any reason to think it wasn't original equipment, so rather than replace it, I modified it to be an adjustable one. It wasn't as much an effort to keep with originality as it was a cost savings; a good quality adjustable endpin for bass is an expensive item. Modding the old one was a matter of figuring out how to get some threads into the wooden plug. Usually, the brass ferrule is threaded, but this one is thin gauge and only meant to be decorative. It would never hold... the first time somebody cranked the thumbscrew to tighten the footrest, the threads would surely strip. (can you tell I've been stewing over this one a while?)

Figuring there was nothing but time to lose by trying, I eased the brass ferrule back off the endpin, then drilled a slightly oversized hole in it on the drillpress. Using a small routing/sculpting bit in a Dremel, and going freestyle, I inlaid a square nut into the wood plug, securing it in place with CA glue. After dressing off the excess with a file so it was round again, the brass ferrule was carefully tapped back on, oriented so that the oversized hole aligned with the new threads for the thumbscrew. This is a small thing, but worth mentioning- I always turn an endpin so that the thumbscrew is most easily accessible when the bass is laying on its treble-side ribs. That's how most players (including myself) set one down, the very next action being to run the footrest in for transport. Presto, right there is the thumbscrew. So if you were wondering, that's the decision-making process. Just didn't want anyone to think it was random.

Now all we need is a 5/8" diameter rod for a footrest... something strong and lightweight. I think an 18" length of thickwall conduit should work fine. For those who like to ponder the road not taken, here's what we could have done: https://www.gollihurmusic.com/product/1743-CARBON_FIBER_REPLACEMENT_ENDPIN_ASSEMBLY_FOR_UPRIGHT_BASS.html

The good folks at International Violin Co. sent me a new set of LaBella strings and a new bridge for it... they're waiting for me up in the shop. I hope (beyond hope) to finish up the King Mor-Tone this weekend. Back in a few.

Pics:
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 04:25:43 AM by edwardofhuncote »

elwoodblue

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2784
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #127 on: September 11, 2019, 05:24:57 AM »
pretty tricky  ;)   nice job.


 ...sending healthy thoughts your way for a few days.

hammer

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3296
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #128 on: September 11, 2019, 05:42:55 AM »
Probably a foolish question but I know little to nothing about uprights. Are bridges always maple? I can see the advantages of using it but wonder if there are alternatives and what if any difference they would have on the sound.

pauldo

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4901
  • What chaos . . . ?
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #129 on: September 11, 2019, 08:11:08 AM »
McGuyver-esque move with the end pin thumb screw.  8)

cozmik_cowboy

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7338
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #130 on: September 11, 2019, 09:08:08 AM »
In hopes that this is a proper venue for a bluegrass joke:

What's the difference between a violin and a fiddle?

The beer stains.

Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

David Houck

  • Global Moderator
  • Senior Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 15595
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #131 on: September 11, 2019, 10:43:25 AM »
... I'm out of the shop for a few days; got a short inpatient procedure scheduled for myself at the 'people shop' here in Salem, VA. tomorrow morning ...


Will be keeping you in my thoughts.

edwardofhuncote

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8017
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #132 on: September 12, 2019, 03:42:30 PM »
Well, I made it back from La-La Land again... what a trip. I think the anesthesia is mostly out of my system now, but not enough to go up to the shop, and even if it was, because they took some biopsies and tissues out, they stopped my NSAID osteoarthritis meds for a week. (already been off it for 5 days, prior) so I don't feel too much like working. They said I talked crazy for a while. Maybe it just seemed that way to everyone else... made sense to me! Anything I post here that looks suspect, just know that I was trying really hard. This has not been a fun couple days, but tomorrow will be better.

Anyway... lemesee here. Brian had a question about bridges. Traditionally yes, violin bridges are maple, though applewood and willow have been used. Maple is very hard and stable. Maple bridge blanks are sold in grades, the highest being seasoned wood of very tight grain. I usually buy something closer to the lower end, up to mid-grade, depending upon the instrument I'm working on. While appropriate for an orchestral grade instrument, on a laminated (plywood) bass, there's no reason to put a $139 bridge made of aged, seasoned European wood on there when a $37.50 bridge will sound just as good. I would probably avoid the $24.50 special, with wavy grain and knots in most cases. More importantly, there is a whole science behind how the bridges are cut too. I'll attach a diagram showing all the individual parts, but the tone of a particular instrument can be altered some by how a bridge is cut and shaped. Thickness, taper, size of the heart and kidneys, the legs and ankles, all have some bearing on the way vibrations are transmitted from the strings to the soundboard. (called a table or plate on a violin) Granted, on most of the instruments that come my way, just carving the taper on the front face, getting the arch to match the curvature of the fingerboard, and making sure the feet fit the top is the most important job. I have on occasion, when a bass has a wolf note or dead note, carved out some mass from the bridge if, and only if, moving the soundpost didn't solve the problem. I have changed the soundpost in a totally dead-sounding bass before and had it make a world of difference. I've also done everything I knew to do, to absolutely no avail. To answer Part 2, yes, there are alternatives. I've even seen an aluminum, mechanical 3-legged bridge once that was fully adjustable, but I think it was actually a tool, made for holding string tension on an instrument while a wooden bridge was being cut. If I could find one, I'd buy it. Sorry for the ramble, hope that explains things a little more clearly.

Ahh, the fiddle and the violin... other than beer stains Coz, a violin has strings; and a fiddle has strangs!

And for those who never get a chance to meet Dave Houck, you're seriously missing out... an email from Dave, while sitting in a hospital waiting room waiting your turn is a very calming thing.

I'll be back in the Scroll Shop tomorrow... stringing up The King. (that didn't come out right...)  ::)

cozmik_cowboy

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7338
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #133 on: September 12, 2019, 04:01:27 PM »
"And for those who never get a chance to meet Dave Houck, you're seriously missing out... an email from Dave, while sitting in a hospital waiting room waiting your turn is a very calming thing."

A few years back, I had what they thought (wrongly) was a heart attack.  I posted about from the hospital - about 2 seconds after I got home, the phone rings, and Shes says "It's some guy named Dave?"
A true gentleman!

Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

pauldo

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4901
  • What chaos . . . ?
Re: The Scroll Shop (Ed of H's Shop Thread)
« Reply #134 on: September 13, 2019, 12:32:07 AM »
  :D