Author Topic: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)  (Read 641 times)

okanakov

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'77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« on: March 25, 2019, 04:25:55 PM »

Last summer I noticed that my bridge pickup sounds weaker than it used to be. I created a topic on that subject: http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=23837.0 I also noticed that the bridge pickup gives more hum than the neck pickup and humcancelling procedure doesn't help much.


Today I went on to investigate further. You can see in this short video what I've discovered. All controls are fully open, both Q switches are off, the pickup selector is set to both pickups.


As you can see the bridge pickup op-amp and resistor exhibit some microphonic effect. I'm not an expert in electronics but I know it's not a good thing. Maybe these two components are dying and that makes bridge pickup volume drop? What can I do to determine if that's the case? I've got a multimeter. Have someone encountered this problem before? Any input will be much appreciated!

« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 05:55:01 PM by okanakov »

slawie

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2019, 02:08:21 AM »
You may have a loose ground to that op amp. Flip it over and resolder the legs and any track ends going to the device. Pretty rare but I have seen it before however not with Alembic series I.
You may have a loose ground in the connector also. Pull back the sleeving and give it a reconnect a couple of times. Be careful with the connector and don’t go all Gronk on it. You can give the tangs a bit of a squeeze.
Good luck man. Nothing worse than a sick Alembic
slawie
“Commitment is what transforms a promise into reality.”
Abraham Lincoln

okanakov

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 03:56:57 AM »
Thank you slawie!
All solder joints seem to be fine. If there is any loose contact it can only be the coaxial connector. As I mentioned previously it is stuck and I haven't been able to disconnect the pickup to test it. Actually all three of them are stuck. I suppose they've never been touched since the bass left the factory. No one knows what's inside them — oxidation, rust or breakage. I guess my only option is using some penetrating lube for electronics.

JimmyJ

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 08:20:07 AM »
Oleg,

Please do not use any spray or "penetrating lube", there are no components on your instrument which would benefit from that.  What you need is more information directly from from Mica or Ron about what may be happening here. 

The coax connectors used in these older model instruments are extremely robust and their gold contacts are unlikely to degrade or become corroded.  See my notes below on where to grip them to pull them apart.  If you can get them all disconnected then you can do a bit more troubleshooting.


If you cannot pull them apart as I have described, it's possible the clear shrink wrap may need to be cut back - but I don't think so.  I believe the shrink was purposely fit for ease of service...  I haven't delt with these connectors for a long time so I don't exactly remember.

Mica??

Jimmy J
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 08:30:15 AM by JimmyJ »

okanakov

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2019, 04:09:17 PM »
Thanks Jimmy!
Yes, I do exactly as you describe. No luck. With protective tubing being retracted I discovered that the pickup side part of the connector can be rotated relative to the preamp side part. But I can't pull them apart!
I measured resistance across the points where pickup leads are soldered to preamp card. I know it doesn't tell me the pickup's DC resistance since there is a resistor soldered in parallel with the pickup, but comparing the reading with that of the neck pickup and the humcanceller tells me there is something definetely wrong with the connector or the bridge pickup itself. Basically, it's random value every time ranging from 1.3 kOhm to 25 MOhm. On the neck pickup and the humcanceller it reads 3.168 and 3.328 kOhm respectively.
I'm not a big expert at electronics and if someone could tell me what and where to measure I'd really appreciate that!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 04:16:34 PM by okanakov »

mica

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2019, 09:16:47 PM »
Have you tried disconnecting the bass pickup? Having worked on many of these, there is a bit of resistance to disconnecting, and you have to kinda get a feel for it.

Do be careful of course, as when the ends are not connected the tabs can be crushed flat from handling, and even when you reconnect you do need to take care.

The whole reason of course is to try troubleshooting by reversing where the pickups are plugged in to identify if the problem is in the pickup side or the card/harness side.

I'll have to send you some new connectors you can splice in if there's just no way to get those apart.

okanakov

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2019, 05:39:48 AM »
I managed to disconnect the neck pickup. Still no success on the other two. Maybe I should try heating the connectors with a soldering iron? From my experience, sometimes it helps.

JimmyJ

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2019, 08:01:46 AM »
Oleg,

Glad you've made some progress, you are only one connector away from being able to complete an important test (switching the bass and treble pickups).  As you've discovered, it takes some force to pull the two pieces apart so keep trying on the bass pickup connector.  But as Mica says, once separated be very careful with the connectors as they are fragile.  Leave the hum coil (black) connected for now.

I would NOT recommend heating the connectors with your soldering iron, sorry.

Once you have disconnected the bass pickup, swap the two inputs - blue into red, red into blue - and then fire it up and see what the results are with your Q-tip tapping method.  If the microphonic issue moves to the other components on the board then you will have confirmed that the problem is a dead or dying bridge pickup.

Jimmy J

okanakov

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2019, 12:40:15 PM »

Thanks Mica and Jimmy!

I've tried everything - pulling like crazy, warming the connector to about 50 degrees Celsius with my soldering iron and even using some lubricant for contacts. No progress whatsoever. The connector feels like one solid piece, not even a slightest wiggle is happening.


I'm not quite sure what my next step should be. But it will likely involve desoldering or cutting things in a vintage and rather valuable instrument. I'd happily avoid that.


Maybe I can take some measurements on the preamp card to determine if it's faulty or not? Or some other non-destructive steps?

rjw

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2019, 08:29:30 PM »
Hi Oleg,

The symptom of less output, no hum-cancelling null, and especially the microphonic sound when tapping the dual FET all indicate that the pickup coil is not connecting to the preamp.   This could be a failure in the tiny magnet wire inside the pickup, or in the connector.

Your ohmmeter measurement is the right thing to do, and the values you found for the bass pickup and hum canceller are what is expected.   As you noted, there is a resistor in parallel with the pickup, but that is only there to provide bias to the FET gate if the pickup is disconnected, and the value of the resistor is 22 MOhm so with the pickup in connected the resistor value is so high that it doesn't affect the approx 3 KOhm value of the pickup coils.

The microphonic noise when tapping the FET is actually good and that indicates that the preamp is functioning properly (with the extremely high 22 M resistor, microphonic noises are easy to produce).   And if the pickup coil were open, then I would expect more noise when you tap the cable than you produced in the video...the coax has teflon insulation, and this material easily generates triboelectric signals so is microphonic when connected to a high impedance.  The microphonic noise is completely shorted out by the source impedance of the pickup, so when all things are working properly, the cables are not very microphonic.  Likewise tapping the other FETs didn't produce the microphonic noise, as the noise is effectively shorted out by the pickups.

The gold connectors are originally designed for microwave gear (like Radar sets) and have precision tolerance limits to perform in that application.  They are installed on the cables at the factory with specialized tooling as field tools would not achieve the required precision for use at microwave frequencies.

As being coax connectors, with one center conductor, and the larger outside (shield) connection, it is normal for you to be able to rotate the connector as you discovered.   So we don't have the parts siezed and joined permanently.   

What is unexpected is the low reading of 1.3 kOhm and the intermittent high reading.  If the connection were intermittent, you would expect the high reading, but when held just right the lower reading would be similar to the other pickups, not the lower reading you measured.

There is one possibility, which is the where the center conductor of the coax cable solders to the circuit board.   That center conductor is very small and delicate, and you can see the white tiewrap (Panduit) nylon devices used as strain relief at the edge of the board on each of the coax connectors.  I'd like for you to examine the center conductor on the top of the board
with a magnifying glass or microscope and make sure that the wire hasn't broken or moved and is shorting to something else on the board.  The center conductor is very fine, and even then it's stranded, so the individual stands are extremely fine.

If the center conductor looks good when magnified, then I'd like to you to pull harder to separate the connector.  As you can see on the Bass pickup connector that you were able to separate, on the connector half that is still connected to the printed circuit board, there is a tiny groove in the outer conductor where it mates with the pickup end.   And if you look, again with a magnifying glass and bright light, you will be able to see on the pickup side of the connector that there are six slots that were sawn to make arc tabs.  At the end of each tab the metal is formed to make little protrusions that drop into the groove on the pc card end to provide the retaining function.  As others have said, these tabs are delicate in the unmated condition.

Also rotate the two halves of the connector when you are pulling apart with a combination pulling and twisting motion to assist the locking protrusions to climb out of the groove.     You can pull hard to convince the connector to disconnect.   Note likely that you would break the connector, but at this point since that channel is not working, we don't have anything to loose.   Then you can remate the connector and see if that restores operation.   To reconnect you have the halves lined up, and then carefully push together, and often assisted with a twisting motion while you push to help the protrusions climb up to let the connector mate.

Then assuming that things come apart, get remated and the problem is still there, as Jimmy started to write, you would reverse the two pickups, and connect the bass pickup to the Red printed circuit connector, an the treble pickup to the Blue PCB connector and see if the problem has moved to the other channel (and you can also verify with the Ohmmeter to measure the pickup resistance.

If the connector breaks, or we determine that the issue is in the connector, then Mica will send you a new connector.  Is your address the same as before?    I'm hoping that things will clear up with remating the original connectors, as it is a difficult job to strip an prepare the end of the cable for soldering to the printed circuit card, as the teflon insulation is tough and it's easy to nick or break the extremely fine strands of the center conductor, but with care, I'm sure you can do it if necessary.   If the pickup side of the connector has to be replaces, then you have to splice it in on the existing wire, and that involves stripping and preparing both sides in order to solder the new connector to the existing pickup lead.   Fortunately, the teflon is totally heat resistant to soldering temperatures, so you don't have the problem of melting the plastic insulation when soldering.

-ron

rjw

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2019, 08:36:18 PM »
Oleg,

One other test before proceeding with unmating the pickup connectors...

Measure the voltage from ground to the pickup with the power on to the instrument.   (measure the same places that you measured the resistance above).   You should see 0 volts if the dual FETs are in good condition.   If you do measure a voltage, then the dual FET has failed.   From the symptoms and from the tests you've already done, I'm almost certain that you'll measure 0 volts, but it's worth checking since the connectors are being hard to disconnect.

-ron

mario_farufyno

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2019, 03:33:30 AM »
I keep always geting amazed by you guys.
Not just a bass, this is an Alembic!

JimmyJ

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2019, 11:08:29 AM »
Oleg,

Ron who replied above is actually the designer and chief guru of all Alembic electronics!

You can see some helpful close-up pictures of these connectors in this thread:
http://alembic.com/club/messages/16271/25011.html?1139618837

And one more thought ... If you applied heat to the connector while the heat shrink tubing was still in place, you may have inadvertently locked it.  If the shrink wrap has tightened down then the "locking protrusions" may not be able to pop out of the groove while you are twisting and pulling...  If that's the case you may need to (very carefully) cut the shrink away to get the connectors to separate. 

Keep trying!

Jimmy J

okanakov

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2019, 02:14:45 PM »
Thanks to everybody!


Following Ron's instructions I finally managed to disconnect my bridge pickup. The key was "twisting motion to assist the locking protrusions to climb out of the groove" I think this even deserves to be mentioned in FAQ. Maybe I'm not the only one who has trouble with these old connectors.


Next I plugged the bridge pickup into the neck pickup connector - and all the symptoms appeared again, but now on the neck pickup channel - low output and microphonic dual FET.


So I probably have a dying bridge pickup. This also may be the reason for an intermittent low resistance reading of 1.3 kOhm. It may be due to a short circuit between pickup coil windings, I guess.

JimmyJ

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Re: '77 SSB Microphonic components in PF-6 board (video inside)
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2019, 05:23:50 PM »
Oleg! 

That is both good news and bad news.  Great that you were able to get the connector separated and then diagnose the problem!  But sad that the conclusion is your pickup has apparently died.  That's a rare failure, but it can happen.

None of us want to see a broken axe out there so we all hope you can get some email going back and forth with Mica and work out a way to get that instrument back to spec.  Update this thread when you have any news - or any more questions.

In the meantime you can play the bass with 1 pickup   :'(  and if you prefer using the bridge pickup you could move the neck pickup into that position...


Jimmy J