Author Topic: IEM's, anyone using them ?  (Read 716 times)

glocke

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IEM's, anyone using them ?
« on: March 07, 2019, 03:40:28 AM »
Band leader for one of the projects I am in is absolutely adamant that we all start using IEM's to keep stage volume at a reasonable level and help with dynamics.


I've tried them with the stock earbuds supplied which are very poor, and also with some Hi_Fi earbuds I have, the latter worked better for me but still was lacking.


The problem?  I am just not getting an "accurate" sound reproduction from my bass.  By accurate I mean the sound that emanates from my cabinet, a Fearless 2x12. 




The entire reason I bought this cabinet was because I fell in love with the way it sounded, boomy lows, clear-mids and a nice glassy high end.  With IEM's I get none of that, I only get whatever the signal is from my DI, which isn't bad, but isn't what comes out of my cabinet.


I'm sure there are some super expensive IEM's out there that will give me a better signal, but they'd also cost a lot of money, and frankly Im not interested in spending tons of money (Or any money frankly on IEM's).


I told the guy I'd meet him halfway and try it again, using only one ear bud so I can still hear my cabinet, but Im not thrilled about that either.  Id really rather just have a small monitor.


This also begets the question...If performers are using IEM's, why bother having any amplifier at all?




Of course this whole dynamics/volume issue is largely a result of the drummer just simply being too much of a heavy hitter.  The dude is at 11 on every song.

JimmyJ

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2019, 07:50:18 AM »
Gregory,

I think you've answered all your own questions. 

#1. The drummer is the source of any stage volume and dynamics issues.  And unless he (she) decides to play electronic pads (yuck) that's not likely to change.  In fact, if the drummer were to go in-ear it might even get louder.

#2. You like the sound of your cabinet better than your DI so unless you mic the cab and send that signal to your in-ears you'll never be happy.

#2.5. If the leader is having trouble hearing and wants to go in-ear then he should go ahead and maybe that will be the end of the problem.  If it's the club owners complaining then no monitor situation is going to change that.  Tell your guy that if you're forced to use in-ear monitors you'll need to turn UP your amp in order to hear it properly.  :D

My personal experience is different because I was never into amp sounds.  I've been a DI through headphones guy since I was a kid so that is my preferred bass sound. Which means I'm totally happy with great (flat) sounding in-ears and no amp onstage.


Jimmy J

StefanieJones

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2019, 12:00:01 PM »
Not much of a help but was recently thinking about this. My thought was about getting IEM to help hear my vocals. They always seem to get lost with everything that's going on. And we're only a 3 piece band! Go figure. But yes it gets hard to hear myself sing with all that sound going on. I'm always asking, can you hear me out there? to my friends after the show. Does it sound okay?  And they say yes. SOoo, I don't know. I my hate it hearing myself in one ear all the time, lol. What a ball of confusion.

Regarding the bass, I just have to hear the notes nothing else matters much in that aspect. To me.

cozmik_cowboy

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2019, 12:05:45 PM »
Drummers - yeesh!

One word:  Brushes!

Peter
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glocke

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2019, 03:34:22 PM »
Gregory,

I think you've answered all your own questions. 

#1. The drummer is the source of any stage volume and dynamics issues.  And unless he (she) decides to play electronic pads (yuck) that's not likely to change.  In fact, if the drummer were to go in-ear it might even get louder.

#2. You like the sound of your cabinet better than your DI so unless you mic the cab and send that signal to your in-ears you'll never be happy.

#2.5. If the leader is having trouble hearing and wants to go in-ear then he should go ahead and maybe that will be the end of the problem.  If it's the club owners complaining then no monitor situation is going to change that.  Tell your guy that if you're forced to use in-ear monitors you'll need to turn UP your amp in order to hear it properly.  :D

My personal experience is different because I was never into amp sounds.  I've been a DI through headphones guy since I was a kid so that is my preferred bass sound. Which means I'm totally happy with great (flat) sounding in-ears and no amp onstage.


Jimmy J

Thanks Jimmy...What IEMs do you use?


JimmyJ

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2019, 12:21:36 AM »
Well, to make a short story extremely long ... last year I decided my original Jerry Harvey model 5s no longer fit very well after 7 years of use.  It turns out the shape of your ear canal changes with age so I felt it was time to get some new impressions taken and upgrade the rig.  I then went on a quest to find IEMs which I thought sounded great.  (Side note: ear impressions can now be 3D scanned and delivered to you or the manufacturers as digital files.  And most manufacturers can 3D print the IEMs.  Pretty neat.)

My Jerry Harvey model 5s were 2-way armature types which I thought sounded good.  But they no longer made the JH5s and I assumed the technology had improved over 7 years so I began checking out what was currently being offered.  The folks at JH suggested I would like their JH11pros which have 4 drivers per ear - 2-bass 1-mid and 1-high - with a 3-way crossover.  I had other friends say the only way to go was FutureSonics single dynamic driver - basically an ear bud in a custom mold. 

So I ordered both of the above to find out which of the newest technologies would beat my old JH5s.  But alas, it was not to be.  The JH11s did not sound flat to me.  As you might expect from multiple drivers, the bass seemed overpowering and the highs seemed hyped.  Now, this could be adjusted for at the monitor desk but I also like to use my in-ears on planes and for various "music" listening situations.  So, I was not that happy with those.

And the Futuresonics also sounded quite odd to me.  Smoother somehow maybe because there is no crossover involved, but I don't think earbuds like to be in enclosures and they need to be a vented to extend the bass response, which means they are not totally isolating and that "port" might twist up the frequency response.  So these didn't work well for me either.

Then I looked back at Ultimate Ears (where Jerry Harvey started) and found that they not only still made the UE5s (2-way) but made what they called a "Reference Remastered" model 3-way which is meant to have a flat response.  I got a set of those and I think they sound very nice in all situations.

So - Ultimate Ears "Reference Remastered" is the model I've settled on and so far I'm very happy. 

The company Ultimate Ears is now owned by Logitech and if you go to ultimateears.com you only find bluetooth speakers and computer accessories.  You have to go to pro.ultimateears.com to find their IEMs. 

One last note - since I'm now relying on these new UE models I decided I should carry a spare of their proprietary cable.  When I found that the cable cost $200 I added a few hundred more and bought a set of UE5s (with the same cable).  Now have a complete backup rig and I think the 5s still sound quite nice.


It's not easy to know how the various models of IEMs sound because even if you try a "generic fit" demo version, once you get your custom molds it can be quite different.  So it was a costly journey for me but I looked at it like an investment and I'm happy with what I landed on.

There is also a newer company called 64audio who are making waves - so to speak.  Again though, their approach is more and more drivers and I'm not sure that's a great idea... 

OK, sorry for the longwinded story.  :D


Jimmy J

edwin

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2019, 07:14:45 PM »
Like Jimmy, I've gone through a bunch of IEMs, including various custom molded ones from Future Sonics, Sensaphonics, and UE. I don't like the acrylic ones, because they don't really ever get a really good seal. Maybe they'd be better with the 3d scanning. However, the Sensaphonics, being silicone fit great and give me great isolation, which is important because one of the primary reasons I use them is to keep my tinnitus at bay as much as possible. But, they still don't sound all that great. They have a boost around 3-8khz and some weird stuff in the midrange.

What I use now are the Etymotic ER3XRs. They are universal fit and they are head and shoulders above all else I've tried in terms of fidelity and seal. The only downside is that they don't have a big low end. That's where the amp comes in, but you have to be careful because the seal is so good that by the time you feel the amp, it's really pretty loud. However, I have found that the EQ decisions I make with them are far better than all the others because the mids and highs are so perfect and smooth. Listening back to recordings, I realize that I'm not setting the filters on the bass to overcome deficiencies of the IEMs, but to get the appropriate tone for the song.

Sensaphonics are now making dual driver full range IEMS (the D2 model) and I am intrigued. Being crossover free and BA free, my guess is that they'd be smoother throughout the midrange and also not super hot in the high end, which triggers the tinnitus.

One of the best things about the ER3XRs is that they are only $175 and they are also fantastic for listening to music (their primary function), so you can buy three pairs for the cost of one custom IEM. But, they are not good sounding for the money, they are just good sounding.

They did just come out with a dynamic driver version, which was at Massdrop for $150, so that seemed worth a shot for a backup pair. I'll get them later in the month and can report back, if anyone is interested.

For all Etymotic, get the XR version, not the XS. It has better bass. The bass isn't absent, it's just not hyped like 99% of IEMs. Another benefit is that the low end is what pumps pressure into your ears and can cause damage because you don't know how loud it really is.

I find that Westone OTO-Ease helps all IEMs get a good seal, too.

Greg, it's good you abandoned the one ear in one out thing. That's the fastest way to permanent hearing damage.

glocke

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2019, 10:59:40 PM »
Like Jimmy, I've gone through a bunch of IEMs, including various custom molded ones from Future Sonics, Sensaphonics, and UE. I don't like the acrylic ones, because they don't really ever get a really good seal. Maybe they'd be better with the 3d scanning. However, the Sensaphonics, being silicone fit great and give me great isolation, which is important because one of the primary reasons I use them is to keep my tinnitus at bay as much as possible. But, they still don't sound all that great. They have a boost around 3-8khz and some weird stuff in the midrange.

What I use now are the Etymotic ER3XRs. They are universal fit and they are head and shoulders above all else I've tried in terms of fidelity and seal. The only downside is that they don't have a big low end. That's where the amp comes in, but you have to be careful because the seal is so good that by the time you feel the amp, it's really pretty loud. However, I have found that the EQ decisions I make with them are far better than all the others because the mids and highs are so perfect and smooth. Listening back to recordings, I realize that I'm not setting the filters on the bass to overcome deficiencies of the IEMs, but to get the appropriate tone for the song.

Sensaphonics are now making dual driver full range IEMS (the D2 model) and I am intrigued. Being crossover free and BA free, my guess is that they'd be smoother throughout the midrange and also not super hot in the high end, which triggers the tinnitus.

One of the best things about the ER3XRs is that they are only $175 and they are also fantastic for listening to music (their primary function), so you can buy three pairs for the cost of one custom IEM. But, they are not good sounding for the money, they are just good sounding.

They did just come out with a dynamic driver version, which was at Massdrop for $150, so that seemed worth a shot for a backup pair. I'll get them later in the month and can report back, if anyone is interested.

For all Etymotic, get the XR version, not the XS. It has better bass. The bass isn't absent, it's just not hyped like 99% of IEMs. Another benefit is that the low end is what pumps pressure into your ears and can cause damage because you don't know how loud it really is.

I find that Westone OTO-Ease helps all IEMs get a good seal, too.

Greg, it's good you abandoned the one ear in one out thing. That's the fastest way to permanent hearing damage.

Interesting..you're one of the first I've heard of that still uses an amp with IEM's.  Seems like everyone else I've discussed this with ditches the amp once they go IEM.  Thats the part i struggle with, it seems that IEM's makes amps obsolete .


I've got some Etymotic HF5's here I've had for years for audio listening use that I've tried as IEM's, and while they are better than what was supplied with the units they still lack the full range bass tone I like to hear with my cabinet.  I know thats not the sound the audience hears, but it's the sound that inspires me while playing.

The sensaphonics D2 look promising, but boy are these expensive.



edwin

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2019, 01:17:09 PM »


Interesting..you're one of the first I've heard of that still uses an amp with IEM's.  Seems like everyone else I've discussed this with ditches the amp once they go IEM.  Thats the part i struggle with, it seems that IEM's makes amps obsolete .


I've got some Etymotic HF5's here I've had for years for audio listening use that I've tried as IEM's, and while they are better than what was supplied with the units they still lack the full range bass tone I like to hear with my cabinet.  I know thats not the sound the audience hears, but it's the sound that inspires me while playing.

The sensaphonics D2 look promising, but boy are these expensive.




An IEM will never give you the experience you get with a powerful amplifier. Moving air is moving air and it's something you experience with your whole body. IEMs with a cabinet for me is better than IEMs alone. There are also shaker type things you can get, essentially a 4'x4' square thing you stand on that provides the low end. I've been curious about those.

And yeah, some of the are really expensive, but how much was your amp? The D2s are about the cost of a decent quality speaker cabinet. It only goes up from there and if you get the bug (hangs head sheepishly- both IEMs and cabinets!), you might find yourself tempted by their top of the line IEMs that let you bring in the ambient sound!

A whole other area of GAS!!!!


lbpesq

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2019, 05:24:45 PM »
And it doesn't have to stop there!  With my Mackie DL32R mixer, everyone in the band can have an iPad on their own mic stand that mixes their own personal mix through IEMs, headphones, or even their own floor monitor.  Everyone can get "more me" without affecting anyone else's mix.

Bill, tgo

mario_farufyno

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2019, 06:00:31 PM »
Not just a bass, this is an Alembic!

tbrannon

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2019, 06:10:17 PM »
that's pretty cool. I'd be interested in one of those just for practicing at home.

rv_bass

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pauldo

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  • What chaos . . . ?

pauldo

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Re: IEM's, anyone using them ?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2019, 05:29:01 AM »
Imagine if this works as intended...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1044514341/backbeat-play-bass-feel-bass

The comment section is loaded with pros and cons... does sound like a cool idea.