Author Topic: Long Scale vs. Short Scale?  (Read 756 times)

paul_boulet

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« on: July 06, 2003, 08:16:06 PM »
Here?s a request for some opinions so anyone and everyone please chime in!
 
I personally am a real big fan of extra long scale length.  All of the basses I?ve ordered custom I?ve had made to 36? scale.  My appreciation for long scale basses came from the fact that I can hear such a distinct sound difference.  Short scales seem to possess a very flat, dull sound to me that lack a dynamic richness that I hear in longer scale basses.
 
I?ll use the comparison to various kinds of pianos.  Big grand pianos have longer scale and larger sound boards, providing more mass to vibrate creating more sound.  So, an upright piano with a short scale and smaller sound board still sounds good but cannot compare it to the richness of a full concert grand.  Likewise, big full contra/double basses sound fuller than a ? scale equivalent, etc.
 
Short scale basses are nice because the small scale makes it more comfortable and it plays much easier.  I would think that for slap playing that the percussive nature of the sound over dominates the actual pitch to the point where a fuller range of overtones wouldn?t matter much (BTW: I?m not a slap player at all).
 
Do any of you agree?  Disagree?  Do any of the sound engineers around here have any insight into the exact physics of this observation?
 
-Paul (Leo)

valvil

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2003, 10:39:28 PM »
This is an old argument, and one I could rant on forever...but to spare you the rant, I'll just say that I totally agree with you.
 
Valentino

tylere

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2003, 06:04:44 AM »
Well, there might be some point to that, but I've found build quality to be more important than the scale length. Of course, if we're talking about Alembic, that isn't much of an issue, is it? That said, I've never known for a super long scale to help that much, and I frankly don't think it's worth the marked decrease in playability. Also, I'm not even that sure that short or medium scale basses are inferior sounding. He put down some of the most ballsey, hard rocking bass playing ever with Gov't Mule in the mid '90s, that was all on a short scale Gibson. Okay, enought rambling out of me!

thebass

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2003, 06:55:41 AM »
The better playablity is definitely an argument for a short/medium scale bass. I also found that the sound of the medium scale basses I've played is more percussive and has a shorter sustain than my standard long scale (34) basses. I like this a lot for slapping. I guess Mark King and Stanley Clarke also like the medium scale basses because of their percussive sound.
 
(not that my bass playing skills could be compared with theirs :-)

palembic

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2003, 07:06:17 AM »
Werner-Werner...
don't be toooooo modest.
I DO liked your demo's on your website.  
BTW how did you liked my name-proposals?
 
Paul the bad one

thebass

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2003, 11:41:42 AM »
Hi Paul,
 
thanks Paul. I like your proposal of naked foot in white sand for the 2nd one. Please keep me updated when you have your next gig near the german border. I also like to give positive feedback.

yahyabb

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2003, 06:31:13 AM »
-Paul (Leo)
 
I think you have to look at the entire neck.  Scale length, finger-board material, neck woods and laminates are all factors.  The location of pickups is important. I'll stay at 35 scale length.
 
Yahya

paul_boulet

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2003, 01:40:15 PM »
I believe that we are all in agreement here that the total makeup of the instrument makes a big difference.  After all, this is the Alembic Club, not the cheap, crap, plywood, bargain-basement, bolt-on, w/exterior house paint finish, Club.  I?m isolating one particular design aspect that is an option for any bass, but a definite consideration for having one made to order.
 
My argument here is simply; longer scale = better sound because; more sting makes more and richer overtones.  Therefore, I play longer scale ? though the difference between 36? & 35? is certainly splitting hairs at that point.  So why play 35? as apposed to 19? as was mentioned in another post?
 
I?d just like to hear other?s conclusions as why pick side of the spectrum over the other.
 
I hope that clarifies the position?  
 
Paul (Leo)

eugen

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2003, 03:31:43 PM »
Hello of friends, the sound comes from the fingers, main thing Alembic!!!!
 
Eugen:   Short Scale User

fretlessoldguy

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2003, 05:13:50 PM »
Hi, I'm a new Alembic owner, and very happy about it.
 
I've been playing electric and stand-up bass for 40 years and I have played just about all of the scale lengths. It's taken me this long to arrive at the threshold of the Alembic.
 
I agree with all of the observations about longer scale length equals superior tone. But, you can still get great tone with the 34 scale. I really don't like the shorter (30, 32) scale length, the strings feel loose like noodles, sustain is lacking, and the tone is often flabby. I'm speaking about scale length here, not instrument makers.
 
On the other hand, a 36 scale can get to be a stretch down in the lower positions. One needs to incorporate upright and electric bass left hand technique to achieve endurance. And good strings are harder to find.
 
One point to add for the speed meisters out there.
 
The greater string tension of a longer scale (35 is my favorite) also means a faster note recovery, thus faster playing and crisper rhythmic accents if that's desired.
 
Another point is that the longer scale instrument will usually yield more sustain since more tension means more stored energy. Sustain is good, especially for fretless.
 
That said. My Europa is a 34 scale length, sounds great, and I like the conveinience of using just about any string I desire.  
 
That Fretless Old Guy

bob

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2003, 10:45:22 PM »
Welcome to the club, Fretless.
 
Normally, one or more of the Pauls handle the greeting (and if you haven't already noticed, you'll be pestered for pictures of your Europa). But given that (a) I simply can't deal with frets at all, and we seem to be in the minority, (b) you've only got a few years on me (maybe I should be the fretless old bald guy, unless you've got that covered as well?), and (c) I'm within a few weeks - really - of getting my first Alembic...
 
It's nice to see you here. Your comments are very astute, to the point, and just happen to coincide with mine - I went for a 35, and was strongly influenced by available strings.
 
I hope we'll hear more from you. For one thing, I'd be interested to hear you elaborate a bit on the apparent contradiction between note recovery and sustain. I understand that energy storage will be better with more tension, resulting in better sustain, but maybe it would help to have a better definition of what you mean by note recovery? Seems like damping is more likely to be a bigger factor in articulation, and I just don't quite understand how tension factors into this (given that we agree it increases sustain). Maybe the extra tension helps to clarify the attack (probably) and hence definition, but i'd like to better understand your thinking here.
 
-Bob

fretlessoldguy

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2003, 05:16:40 AM »
Bob,
 
Yeah, I've got bald covered too.
 
This is off subject but I am responding to a request for clarification from within this thread. This relates to scale length in that shorter scale length is usually equivilent to lower string tension and vise versa.
 
Regarding String recovery; This is just  personal opinions and empirical evidence gathered over many years of playing and thinking about electric bass. I don't have an engineering degree so feel free to contribute more valid scientific arguments.
 
To put it simply, I think I can play faster on higher tension strings. Now you don't have to read the rest of this posting.
 
You asked for an elaboration so here it is.
 
In general, higher tension strings are also higher mass strings given an equal scale length. However a low tension string on a short scale bass will have even lower tension than design specifications indicate.
 
Newton said, That which is in motion, tends to remain in motion. er, approximately. When a string is plucked, kinetic energy is imparted into that string and it is set in motion.
 
So sustain is Newtonian motion effected by various dampening factors such as body resonance (transduction of energy), friction of the string against the fingers and fingerboard. Acoustic coupling, string characteristics, etc.
 
String recovery is the time it takes the string to stop motion and reinstate motion for a new note, when the new note and the old note are played on the same string, such as an ostinato.
 
If the new note is on another string this is less important but is still a factor in speed due to rise time (the amount of time it takes a string to propagate a frequency along it entire length and to stabilize) of a plucked note.
 
When a new note is plucked the finger first touches and dampens the string, at this time the string continues to move with random harmonics and vibrations moving up and down the string, because some of the previous energy is still effecting the string. Sort of like waves shloshing around in a small pool. Then, within milliseconds, the plucking finger continues to move across the string imparting enervating energy to create the new note.
 
It is at this time that String recovery is important. The string must be able to be rapidly dampened and the pluck impulse of the new note must be converted into motion (percussive impulse and then sustain).
 
I belive that the inertia of a string with higher tension characteristics is easyer to control than one with floppy characteristics. Just as a firm spring is easyer to control than a Slinky. It may take more countering energy (dampening effort) to bring the higher tension string under control (dampened) but it will occur in less time. The lower tension string will still be jiggling with random harmonics milliseconds after the higher tension string has been fully dampend, or a new note has been plucked. I belive this is due to the high tension string having more effective induction with enervating and dampening forces. A lower tension string will continue to vibrate along its length for a longer period even though being dampened because its motion is less powerfully inducted (linked) to the dampening force. Conversely, when the lower tension string is enervated, this same inferior induction creates a longer rise time, and more unstable harmonics until the string settles into a regular oscillation for the note to propigate.
 
The important idea is that to play very quickly the string needs to minimize the time that random oscillations between notes occur and enable the string to respond to the players plucking impulse rapidly. Ramping up the new note frequency without combining latent energy left over from the prior note.
 
Of course there are aways exceptions. The newer slap technique using lighter gauge strings completly obviates this entire argument because the slap technique is so dynamic that the percussive impulse of a thumb hit or a pop overwhelms latent vibrations.
 
Best regards, and I look forward to your superior argument.
 
Fretless (bald) Old Guy

jet_powers

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2003, 06:22:07 AM »
My hat's off to you fretless guys. I started with fretless and played them exclusively for the first five or six years of my bass playing life. I still have my '78 Fender P-Bass fretless. It rarely sees the light of day anymore but am glad to hear there are people carrying on the tradition.
 
Fretless (bald) Old Guy: No engineering degree, huh? You could have fooled me. I too, look forward to hearing a superior argument. I'm not sure there is one....
 
Cheers,
John Paul

dnburgess

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2003, 05:26:45 PM »
Thanks for the exposition, Fretless Old Guy. I am still not 100% clear on the interaction of string length, tension and finger pressure at the fret.
 
The fact that a longer string must be at higher tension to produce the same pitch as a shorter string seems clear enough. That would seem to imply that an infinitely long string would have to be at infinite tension. Wouldn't it be impossible to fret a string at infinite tension?
 
Hmmm - time to dig out the old physics text books.

bob

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Long Scale vs. Short Scale?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2003, 09:53:42 PM »
Fretless,
 
Okay, how about Fretless Old *Bearded* Bald Guy? (and just to save some time, the beard has to have quite a bit of grey). Okay, I'm off topic too, but it happens here with surprising frequency... and we're among friends.
 
I certainly don't have a superior argument (good one, that), and I'm truly grateful for your elaboration. it's very much in line with what I was thinking, that higher tension helps you start the new note more clearly, though I really hadn't thought through what that meant about ending the old one. I have a pretty fair understanding of string vibrations, but you've given me some new things to think through - and unfortunately I'm so swamped with work right now that I haven't even played in about three days. When I get a little more time, I want to read through this again, and experiment a little. Good stuff, thanks.