Row Jimmy

[lbpesq]

I just played along with the WOTF version. I agree with Harry that it is in 4/4, except between the end of the verse and the chorus is a cut measure (2/4).  Also, there is a cut (2/4) measure at the end of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of the bridge.

It's funny how I've heard this song so many times that I know how it goes, but when I start counting in my head, it seems weird!

Bill, tgo

[glocke]

I just played along with the WOTF version. I agree with Harry that it is in 4/4, except between the end of the verse and the chorus is a cut measure (2/4).  Also, there is a cut (2/4) measure at the end of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th lines of the bridge.

It's funny how I've heard this song so many times that I know how it goes, but when I start counting in my head, it seems weird!

Bill, tgo

 
Its funny...going back and listening to it again Im not hearing the 2/4 measures you are talking about, but I think I am hearing/feeling them in other places as counting 4/4 all the way through the tune doesn't exactly feel right, so Im sure they are there, Im just feeling them in different spots.  Than again I haven't gotten to the WOTF version yet, only live versions from the 70's and some Dead and Co. versions.  I'll probably sit down with WOTF later today

By bridge, you mean what's listed as the "Thats the way it's been in town " part?  If so Im not really able to feel anything in 2/4 there either.

It is really an odd tune, and even after spending more time on it I still find it to be the most difficult and challenging Dead tune I've played.  What seems to confound the issue also is that there are live versions by the G.D. out there that have what sound like mistakes in them but the band handles them fairly well and they end up sounding intentional (almost).

I think the vast majority of G.D. tunes people can walk up onto a stage and play unrehearsed, but this one is really a tune that everyone in the band has to have a pretty firm understanding of if they want to pull it off well.   

I'd have love to have been a fly on the wall when Garcia and everyone else were in the studio working this one up.  I wonder how much of its uniqueness/strangeness is from them just doing something because it sounded like a cool thing to do v.s. it being something well thought out.

I'm really half tempted to send this one off to one of those professional transcription services to see what they come up with...

[cozmik_cowboy]

We're heading home 12/30 about 0600, so probably not.  Phooey.

Peter

[hieronymous]

OK, I'm listening again and following along with the music - this song is messed up!!! The drums get turned around at the end of the first solo, and then keep playing backwards almost until the next chorus. I think that's what's messed up! Yeah, it happens on the second solo too. It's almost like the harmony musicians are playing straight through the chart but Bill Kreutzmann gets off track because of those times when the tonic comes back two beats earlier than you expect. There are extra 4/4 measures here and there, but it only sounds like measures of 2/4 - or at least that's what I think right now.

Listening to Cornell 5/8/77, they drummers play it "right" - I think what Bill Kreutzmann plays on the original studio version is that he follows the way it seems it might go, restarting the counting when the tonic comes back in two beats earlier than it seems like it should, and that's the way I've always heard it. A subtle, deceptively difficult and deceptively easy at the same time, tune!

[edwin]

Feels like 4/4 all the way through to me. I think they are all pretty sure of where things are so they play the stuff that's not obvious. Which makes it sound like the beat is in various places. Part of playing with the continuous "one".

[rv_bass]

I vaguely remember mention of the continuous one, searched the web briefly but could not find anything.  Do you know where I can read dab out it?

[glocke]

Feels like 4/4 all the way through to me. I think they are all pretty sure of where things are so they play the stuff that's not obvious. Which makes it sound like the beat is in various places. Part of playing with the continuous "one".

I went back and listened to the WOTF version as well as some Dead & Co. versions.  Both are little more "coherent" and sound a little better thought out to me than any of the G.D. live versions (and as I eluded to earlier, some of those contain what sound like errors on the bands part that they recover well from, which I think leads to further confusion), and I think it's in 4/4 as well.  Im not hearing any bars of 2/4 in WOTF or Dead and Co.

Edwin, can you elaborate on what exactly you mean by the "continuous one" ?  Thats something that sounds pretty esoteric.  Are you inferring that the band was basically just throwing the "one" down in random locations and the band as a whole had the ability to sense this and somehow made that work?

[rv_bass]

Gloke, I think that’s the basis of it, especially for live 70s versions of tunes like Dark Star, Playin’ in the Band, Weather Report Suite, The Other One, etc.  I think I recall Lesh or Hart describing it, but I don’t remember where I read it. 

[cozmik_cowboy]

In the documiniseries Long Strange Trip, Billy says "I'm probably the worst drummer in the world for keeping the beat.  But I'm great at keeping the feel!"  Or something close to that.

Peter

[edwin]

Apparently there was a quote by one of the band members that went along the lines of:

Question: “Where’s the one?”

Answer: “It’ll get here eventually.. you’ll know it when you hear it..”

They've all talked about how the one becomes a continuous now. Of course, I think some of that is being cute, as they all seem pretty capable of keeping track of it while the actual playing gets pretty abstract. But in the jam parts of the songs Rob points out, the one can become a matter of perspective, with multiple perspectives happening at once.  In learning how to do that, it's worth spending some time with polyrhythms and playing over the bar line, which can be a disorienting thing for bass players, who are generally so used to marking the beats regularly. If you start thinking of longer lines that go over bar lines and delay the obvious resolutions, it makes the music, especially the jams, a lot more interesting. Having a drummer like Billy helps, but any drummer who is familiar with odd times and the playing of Elvin Jones and similar drumming perspectives arrives at the same place.

I think the GD's skill at these things was the result of long practice and the willingness in the early years to take the risks and have the whole thing fly off the rails every now and then. It's a hard thing to catch up to if you don't get to rehearse a lot and gig a lot in front of a forgiving audience.

[edwardofhuncote]

Just wanted to pop in and say how much I have enjoyed this thread.


Now, if someone can please explain "Estimated Prophet" to me in a similar fashion..   

[cozmik_cowboy]

Just wanted to pop in and say how much I have enjoyed this thread.


Now, if someone can please explain "Estimated Prophet" to me in a similar fashion..   

Well, to start, it's in 7/8.

I'm not nearly versed enough in theory to confirm or deny this (or even it's possibility), but I once read there were times they each played in a different time signature, in such a way that the band as a whole sounded in 4/4.

Peter

[edwin]

Estimated is in 7. I don't think they played in different time signatures (my old band, Shockra, used to do that, with my favorite being 11 against 13) but they did play with various combinations of 3 and 4 to make the tune swing in different ways. It took a long time for me to really get the bass part because I kept trying to play 3-4, when it's really 4-3 for the verses. I'm sure the drummers played 4/4 through most of it more than once.

[StephenR]

According to the "official" Dead Anthology Estimated is alternating bars of 3/4  and 4/4. I always think of it as 7. But since the main phrases are 14 beats long the easiest way to count it is three bars of four followed by one bar of two... It doesn't really matter how you count since it is all about getting a feel for the length of the cycle. Fun tune to play as is Row Jimmy!

[lbpesq]

And then there's "The Eleven".

Bill, tgo