Can't intonate B String - saddle maxed

[tomhug]

I have an Essence 5. I just put on Sunbeam NMR5-130s (45-65-85-105-130).


My B string is sharp about 20 cents when fretted on the 12th, and the saddle is maxed as far as it will go.

I've done all the other setup procedures as described in Joey's Post and elsewhere online. All the other strings intonated fine.

Is there a solution? Hypothetically speaking, if the brass tone block had mounting holes a bit closer to the edge of the body, the whole bridge could shift down and put all the saddles back into an intonatable range.

Would a slightly lighter gauge B string help? I could go to a 125...

Tom

[gtrguy]

How far does it need to go? You could first try reversing the brass block, but that may well not do it. If it needed to go a long ways, you could get a longer adjustment screw and hang it off the back of the bridge. You could also drill another hole in the sustain block and tap it and mount that side of the bridge back further, as you suggested. Do you have another B string to try out on it?
Also, B strings are notoriously hard to intonate correctly. Are you positive it is off?

Lastly, In my working on Alembics, those brass blocks drop out pretty easy (you can put the screws just in the block and pull). Maybe you could flip it over and carefully drill new holes? (you may then want to level and polish the brass if it needs it on the backside, just for looks)

My less than .02 cents worth

[tomhug]

How far does it need to go?

If you look at the first picture, that's from before I did the setup. I believe this bass had 120's on it then (from the previous owner). I would estimate it it needs to go about one more saddle-thickness away from the neck to intonate properly.

Do you have another B string to try out on it?

I may try with the old string, or I may try with a lighter-gauge B

Also, B strings are notoriously hard to intonate correctly. Are you positive it is off?

I use iStroboSoft for intonation, which is the iOS verison of a Peterson Strobe Tuner. I use it for all my instruments, so I am pretty sure the technology works and that my methods are sound.


I guess hypothetically I could also compensate the nut somewhat. I will probably just start with a lighter B-string and see how that affects things.

Thanks for the ideas.

[StephenR]

Did you check the intonation when the old strings were on? Change the neck relief when doing the new setup? If the intonation was good with the lighter string and/or you changed the relief on the neck that may give you some clues. Due to the thickness of the B strings and large orbit at their center it can be tricky to set neck relief so that the string doesn't buzz but also intonates properly when fretted. Sometimes you just have to find a gauge or brand of strings that sit better on the bass, sometimes you have to accept a trade off of preferred string height vs precise intonation. If the string has to sit closer to the neck to get the intonation right it can mean having to adjust right hand technique to eliminate any fret buzz. Naturally all the frets also need to be level and seated properly, too. All the five-strings I own have to be finessed a bit during setup to get it right. It is rare but sometimes you can get a bum string out of a fresh pack so that is worth checking, too.

[tomhug]

Did you check the intonation when the old strings were on? Change the neck relief when doing the new setup? If the intonation was good with the lighter string and/or you changed the relief on the neck that may give you some clues. Due to the thickness of the B strings and large orbit at their center it can be tricky to set neck relief so that the string doesn't buzz but also intonates properly when fretted. Sometimes you just have to find a gauge or brand of strings that sit better on the bass, sometimes you have to accept a trade off of preferred string height vs precise intonation. If the string has to sit closer to the neck to get the intonation right it can mean having to adjust right hand technique to eliminate any fret buzz. Naturally all the frets also need to be level and seated properly, too. All the five-strings I own have to be finessed a bit during setup to get it right. It is rare but sometimes you can get a bum string out of a fresh pack so that is worth checking, too.

These are all good thoughts. I did change both the gauge of the strings and the relief of the neck during the most recent setup.

I did not actually check the intonation prior to swapping strings. I think, all things being equal, the bass is in overall better shape now than before the string change/setup/intonation. What I will probably do is order a singleton in a lighter gauge, and see where that puts things. Or I may just go down one size to the DR Sunbeam 45-125s.

I don't have my action set crazy-low, but there was way too much relief in the neck prior to my recent setup.

I'll be playing this bass tonight in a familiar setting, so we'll see how she does. 20 cents at the 12th fret on the B String may not mean much in actual practice, although it would be nice to dial it in perfectly on all strings.

[lbpesq]

Tom, if it is only a little off, you could file down the saddle on the backside, where it is in contact with the back of the bridge rail.  You would wind up with a thinner saddle, but still have the correct break vs. reversing the saddle.  Does that make sense?

Bill, tgo

[gearhed289]

Contact core strings might help. You can buy individual GHS strings at juststrings.com if you just want a B. I would definitely play around with some different strings before drilling. 

[adriaan]

What year is it? Looking at my 88 Spoiler and 94 Epic, sometime between those two years the length of adjustment went from about 14 mm to about 19 mm (about 0.2" longer). IIRC, the Mothership can set you up with a bridge rehab kit with longer barrels, bolts and whatnots.

[tomhug]

Contact core strings might help. You can buy individual GHS strings at juststrings.com if you just want a B. I would definitely play around with some different strings before drilling. 

True except contact core would require a new saddle as well. But I agree that they would likely address teh intonation.

I'm just going to try to go down a gauge with the same type of strings. Or maybe two gauges. Simplest solution, I think. Thanks!

[tomhug]

What year is it? Looking at my 88 Spoiler and 94 Epic, sometime between those two years the length of adjustment went from about 14 mm to about 19 mm (about 0.2" longer). IIRC, the Mothership can set you up with a bridge rehab kit with longer barrels, bolts and whatnots.

It's a 2004. The bridge on it is already 19mm. But that would be a sweet and simple solution - a longer play bridge.

[tomhug]

It seems I have a bigger problem than I first thought. I put the strings that were on there previously back on, and I still cannot intonate this instrument. I purchased this bass second-hand, and I did not do a full setup when I got it.

With the original gauge strings on there, here's how the saddles look:



Both the E and the B are maxed. The E is about 5 cents sharp when fretted, the B is still about 20 cents sharp.

Here are the results of the strings on there now:

String	B	E	A	D	G
Gauge	.125	.100	.080	.060	.045
Harmonic	-00.2	-06.5	-06.6	-02.2	-03.2
Fretted	+20.2	-01.2	-06.7	-02.3	-03.0

I have to presume that this bass has never intonated properly with a low B.

Help ?!?

[edwardofhuncote]

Weird. 

I would have a sustain block drilled so the bridge was offset... that seems the easiest fix.

[rv_bass]

Tom,

Have you tried a lighter gauge string?  I use 115 for B on my two five string basses.  The saddles are pretty far back, but don't touch the end of the bridge and both basses intonate well. And, the 115 B sounds pretty good!

Rob

[StephenR]

Beyond the readout on the tuner does the bass sound out of tune to you when you play it?

I have a luthier friend who apprenticed to Jimmy D'Aquisto. For years he used Jimmy's templates to cut this fret slots, same templates that John D'Angelico used and were passed on to Jimmy. When Joseph got "modern" templates created via computer we were both surprised at how "off" the fret placement was on the D'Aquistos and D'Angelicos yet the guitars sound fine when you play them. I kind of find it hard to believe that Alembic would ship an instrument without setting it up properly and checking the intonation.

Meanwhile the suggestion to try other brands/gauges of strings is a good one. You may be able to find out what kind of strings were on the bass when it originally shipped from the factory. If you don't have the build sheet ask Mica to look it up. Strings are usually listed on the build sheet. You shouldn't have to alter the bridge unless it was not made properly and if that is the case it may fall under warranty repair even though you are not the original owner, you would have to check with Alembic about that and then ship the bass to them to evaluate it.

[tomhug]

Beyond the readout on the tuner does the bass sound out of tune to you when you play it?

I have a luthier friend who apprenticed to Jimmy D'Aquisto. For years he used Jimmy's templates to cut this fret slots, same templates that John D'Angelico used and were passed on to Jimmy. When Joseph got "modern" templates created via computer we were both surprised at how "off" the fret placement was on the D'Aquistos and D'Angelicos yet the guitars sound fine when you play them. I kind of find it hard to believe that Alembic would ship an instrument without setting it up properly and checking the intonation.

Meanwhile the suggestion to try other brands/gauges of strings is a good one. You may be able to find out what kind of strings were on the bass when it originally shipped from the factory. If you don't have the build sheet ask Mica to look it up. Strings are usually listed on the build sheet. You shouldn't have to alter the bridge unless it was not made properly and if that is the case it may fall under warranty repair even though you are not the original owner, you would have to check with Alembic about that and then ship the bass to them to evaluate it.

Unfortunately it does sound out of tune when I play the B. And unfortunately If I'm playing this bass , it's because I need a B string. (I have a 4-string I can play when I don't need the B)