PA for small gigs

[jalevinemd]

I know most of you have had a lot more experience with gigging than I've got. So I Was wondering what people's opinions/experience is with relatively portable PA systems for small club/bar gigs. I've been doing some research but price and quality seem to be all over the map. The new Yamaha STAGEPAS 600i has gotten good reviews, but I'm not sure if systems like this are high quality tools or more like glorified toys. We're looking for a durable/usable system that won't break the bank. Any input would be appreciated.




Jonathan

[dtothec]

Jonathan we need a little more info.  What do you consider a small venue? How many channels will you need?  Will you be putting everything through it or will it just be for your singers? If you will be putting keys, drums and bass through it a small PA may not do.  Will you be using it outdoors as well?

[cozmik_cowboy]

I would second what Darrell said, Jonathon - but would add that Yamaha only makes quality stuff; you can't go wrong with them.

[jalevinemd]

Darrell...thanks. You've got me thinking.


We will be putting everything through it...four vocal mics, bass, two guitars, keyboards and at least the bass drum and high hat.


We'll be playing local bars...so not big venues at all.


Given the size of the places we're looking to play at, I really didn't think we'd need a PA for any of the instruments at least. But our rehearsal space is set up a lot like a bar/small club. There's a slightly raised stage and then the audience area. My co-guitarist and I both play wireless so we were able to walk out into the audience area during rehearsal. We found that dead center was the only place that everything sounded good. Off to the left you lost my guitar and off to stage right you lost my partner's and the bass. Vocals also got buried if we were turned up too much. The owner of the space has a recording console/mixing board, monitors, PA's, etc...So we mic'd our last two rehearsals and it was like night and day. Much more balanced and we could turn down our stage volumes considerably. So we figured we'd probably need to do the same for any gigs and I doubt most of the places we'd be looking at have a dedicated sound system. We're in the Western Suburbs of Chicago and we're not looking at well known music venues...believe me. As for outdoors, most likely not.

Here's a couple photos of our space.


Thanks.

[jalevinemd]

I looked into this mixer.

[lbpesq]

Jonathan, I just coming out of the tunnel you are entering, having re-done my PA.   After a lot of research, I got Yamaha DBR15 mains.   Excellent speakers with lots of power, weighing less than 40 lbs., and have a seven year warranty!  These are an excellent "one box" speaker for a small venue - no need for subwoofers.  As for my mixer, I first tried the Mackie DL1608.  This is a very small and light 16 channel digital mixer.  The only controls in the mixer are 16 gains and a headphone jack and volume.  Everything else is controlled by an iPad.  You can either slide the iPad into the Mackie, or hook up a router and use it wirelessly.  Thus, you can walk around the room mixing.  It has six aux outs that can each be controlled by a separate iPad or smart phone.  You can give each band member control over their own monitor mix, either through wedges or IEMs, which brings us to the monitor question. 

You can get powered floor wedges, or an amp and passive wedges.  Since I already had four passive wedges, I got the Behringer iNuke NU4-6000 - a four channel amp that puts out 4x440 watts into 8 ohms - plenty enough power for monitors from a relatively inexpensive, flexible, and lightweight amp.  Yes, I know it's "Behringer", but some of their stuff is actually good.  This amp gets great reviews and I love it, so far.

Alternatively, you can go with IEMs.  More costly, but you will all hear better and there will be a lot less to schlepp without floor wedges.

Getting back to the Mackie,after spending some time with the DL1608, I upgraded to the DL32r.  It's 32 channels instead of 16.  You can plug an external harddrive or a computer into it and it can record 32 tracks.  This is great for recording live shows and rehearsals.  You can also play it back through the PA to do a "virtual soundcheck" during set up without having the band onstage actually playing.  The DL32r also has 14 aux outs.

If after checking it out, you have any interest in the DL1608, I have one for sale.


Bill, tgo

[jalevinemd]

Bill,


Thanks for all of that. Really helps. I had looked into those very same Yamaha speakers. They got excellent reviews and seemed well priced. I would love to make the IEM investment, as would my co-guitarist, but the other guys aren't interested. So it looks like we're going with floor monitors which, as you've mentioned, adds to the overall pain in the ass of transport.


As for the Mackie, I'm not sure about having to bring an iPad along. A bit too fragile for me. I'll look into it, though and run it by the rest of the group.

[lbpesq]

Jonathan, not everyone has to use IEMs, and they don't have to be wireless.  I picked up a Presonus six channel headphone amp, some headphones, and some 25ft. extension cables.  People can try out the IEMs before making an investment.  As for controls, I picked up three iPad mini's on eBay for around $100 each.  Each band member has an iPad mini mounted on a mike stand and controls their own mix.  Thus, every band member can hear "more me" without blowing everyone else away. 

As for the Carvin unit, I've had good experience with Carvin products.  My floor wedges are Carvins I've had for around 20 years and only had to replace a driver on one one time.  My Carvin power amp recently blew up after around 20 years, and my current guitar rig is an F2-B through a Carvin DCM200L four lb. 100 watt per channel stereo power amp.

Bill, tgp

[jalevinemd]

But I'm assuming we're still committed to floor monitors for the guys that aren't using IEM's? To that end, I wouldn't want to make the investment for myself if I'm going to have traditional monitors anyway. I'd happily pay for the convenience but not the redundancy.


I can't tell you how much this all helps. Since my last group was organized through our local School of Rock, they provided all necessary sound equipment for our shows. This is the first time we've had to do it on our own and we're all relatively naive when it comes to this stuff.


Thanks.

[lbpesq]

One of the things I really like about the Mackie is the flexibility.  You can start with traditional floor wedges and transition to IEMs when you're ready.  The Carvin powered mixer you posted is only 300 watts into 8 ohms for your mains.  That's not a lot of power for a PA, especially if you plan on micing the instruments.  And 12 channels could get a little tight if you ever want to mic the drums (which you probably will once you start micing instruments).  Also, the Carvin looks like it only has two monitor line outs.  This will prevent you from doing individual monitor mixes and you'll have to scrap it and start all over again should you ever want to transition to IEMs.

Bill, tgo

[jalevinemd]

Thanks. Didn't realize the limited power.

[keith_h]

Your going to need a lot more than what you've posted if you want to put everything through the PA. The bass, keys and bass drums alone will require subs. I would suggest two single 18" for the subs unless you are doing more metal style music then teo dual 18" subs would be better. Also with these I would look at 15" and horn mains since you will still have bass and low mids in them. If you were to keep most of the instruments out of the PA you could get by with 12" mains (PA is vocals, keys and a couple of overhead drum fills). I would still look at two 18" subs but with this you might be able to get by with a single 18" or a couple 15" based horn loaded subs. Mackie has a 15" horn loaded if I recall.

The other thing you need to decide is if you want to go with integrated or discrete amplifiers. If I were building up a new PA today I would probably go with integrated amps to reduce the amount of gear I had to haul. Depending upon which way you decide to go I would look at the Yamaha Club V series of speakers or JBL MRX500 series. For powered the JBL PRX600 series.

For the mixer I would go with digital these days. The Allen and Heath ZED series is pretty good as is the Presonus 16.0.2 or 16.4.2. If you want to go analog the Allen and Heath MixWizard series, what I use, are hard to beat.

[elwoodblue]

If you happen to look at the Mackie SRM450's (powered 15" and a horn),
the older ones with the Italian RCF speaker are a notch up in quality.


+1 on the 18" (or two)

[jalevinemd]

Thanks for the input guys. Sounds like it's going to be a bit of a project.

[lbpesq]

Here's a fairly in depth review of the Yamaha DBR15s.  This, and the seven year warrantee, sold me.  Especially the part about not needing subs.

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/yamaha-dbr12-dbr15

Bill, tgo