Author Topic: Getting Into Treble  (Read 743 times)

jalevinemd

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Getting Into Treble
« on: May 20, 2016, 12:02:07 PM »
So...the whole playing out regularly thing is still a little new to me. One thing I'm finding is that when I practice the songs at home, the tone that I've got dialed in has too much treble at the louder volumes I play in our rehearsal space. Shy of playing at the same volume in my house, is there a way to get around this?

keith_h

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2016, 12:23:20 PM »
That's all part of playing out. You need to readjust your settings to fit the place you are are playing. What I have done in the past is jot down my home settings to make it easier to get back to where I started. Another option is keep two rigs. One for rehearsal and gigs and the other for practicing at home.

mario_farufyno

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2016, 02:29:10 PM »
That is natural, each acoustic space has its own character and will interact with any sound produced there. So there is no point on using the same eq or gain settings in two different places, you have always to match your tone to each ambient you get. But you should do this in your amp, not on the Bass. Ideally we should know how our instrument really sounds like (as I work on studios, it was simple to figure out mine , since the sound at engineer's sweetspot is - supposedly - fairly flat). You can try a good phone to avoid room acoustics in a flat sound system (or whatever this means) to get used to how your Bass sounds independently from amps or rooms.

This is not so easy since each phone also sounds differently, though. But this is the only way to not get too biased by room natural tone. Once you know exactly how it sounds bare naked you 'll be able to make any adjustment on amp just to compensate any room or equipment's idiosyncrasy. Remember, your tone comes from your bass and fingers, but what you will hear depends upon how your amp sounds and how they will interact with room acoustics. So, don't change your tone on bass or pedals just because it sounds odd or different on any room, use your amp to compensate this and make it sounds back like it should.
Not just a bass, this is an Alembic!

slawie

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2016, 05:54:02 PM »
I cannot remember where I got this from but I have it
embedded in my memory (and set as notes in my phone)
It does help me get "my tone" whatever the room/stage.

Amp setup for room type using shelving eq from amp. I have a TC Electronic RH750
so I have an adjustable range of (Bass, Low mid, Hi mid and Treble) shelving frequencies to choose from.

Send to the mixer is always post eq
 
           Bass
 
 Goal - Find the frequency with the best balance of power and definition, avoiding a boomy/muddy sound
from being too low and lack of power from being too high.
 
 Process - Pluck open E while adjusting the bass shelving frequency, listening for the point where
the power and definition are maximized.
 
           Lo-Mid
 
 Goal - Find the frequency where the sound is "strongest".
 
 Process - Play 5th fret harmonic on the G string while adjusting the Lo-Mid center frequency,
listening for the point where the harmonic is most powerful.
 
           Hi-Mid
 
 Goal - Find the frequency where the sound is the most "aggressive."
 
 Process - Pop open G string while adjusting the Hi-Mid center frequency (starting from low) while listening
for the point where it sounds as if a blanket has been lifted from the cabinet. Going too high results in an
overly bright, unpleasant quality.
 
          Treble
 
 Goal - Find the frequency where the brightness of the sound is "most pleasant."
 
 Process - Pop open G string or while adjusting while adjusting the treble shelving frequency,
listening for the point where the brightness is captured best. The same blanket lifting analogy
can be used to find this point/range.
(And this can alternatively be done with the sound of rubbing the strings - I don't find that works for me)
 
 After center/shelving frequencies are set, cut/boost to taste/room.

slawie
“Commitment is what transforms a promise into reality.”
Abraham Lincoln

bigredbass

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2016, 02:48:19 AM »
It may be the classic case of the amp sounds great at this much gain, and then the tone changes at higher outputs.

Actually you've discovered the Bedroom Tone Curse:  I sound like 2 million bucks in the sunroom, and of course it all goes south with a band in a club.  The Double Jepoardy of this is rehearsal spaces (unless you're in a serious touring outfit that can rent space at SIR or the like) are the Black Hole of all performing spaces:  The drummer's garage, a mini-storage, I'm telling you, Meyer Sound can't save them !!!!

Joey

pauldo

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2016, 05:52:50 AM »
Slawie, that sounds like a good way to dial things in, I need to make it a ready reference for myself, especially since I'm not playing out much at all.

I digress, as cool as your tutorial is, I am pretty sure Jonathan plays those things with the really skinny strings!  :o

jalevinemd

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2016, 06:49:03 AM »
Yeah...Paul's right. I'm guilty of playing 9-46. This is all good advice, though. I'll just try dialing down the tone knobs on the OD pedals a bit when playing at those higher volumes. The amp is set clean. I get all of my dirt from the pedalboard and that seems to be were the tweaking is needed.

lbpesq

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2016, 08:40:58 AM »
I find that not only is the size and shape of the room a variable to deal with, but also how my bandmates tweak their instruments is a large part of the equation.  I'm trying to find "my tone", while also trying to fit into the band sound without stepping on anyone else and still maintain my place in the mix.  This is where listening, having "big ears" is so important - especially in the jam-band/Grateful Dead genre where interplay among the instruments is the lifeblood of the music. 


Are you using the OBEL?  That should help you get more consistent settings out of your pedals.  Otherwise, as you adjust the volume on your guitar, the pedals see a diffent input signal and react differently.  That's why Garcia went to the OBEL in the first place.  My guitar setting stays essentially the same in all situations in that my volume is on "10" - I go full blast into my effects and control it with a volume pedal at the end of the chain (essentailly an OBEL without the extra wire).  I do most of my tweaking on the amp, with the final tweaking back at the guitar employing the LPF and the Q.  It's amazing how great an effect comes from just a very small turn of that filter critter!  I do wish I could get rid of 1-3 and 8-10 and have the LPF start at what is now the "4", and end at what is now the "7", so I could have more nuanced control. 

Bill, tgo
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 08:43:57 AM by lbpesq »

slawie

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2016, 11:18:28 PM »
That's my senior moment.
Hahaha D'oh! :o
Now get off my lawn
« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 11:20:33 PM by slawie »
“Commitment is what transforms a promise into reality.”
Abraham Lincoln

jalevinemd

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2016, 09:04:15 AM »


Are you using the OBEL?  That should help you get more consistent settings out of your pedals.  Otherwise, as you adjust the volume on your guitar, the pedals see a diffent input signal and react differently.  That's why Garcia went to the OBEL in the first place.  My guitar setting stays essentially the same in all situations in that my volume is on "10" - I go full blast into my effects and control it with a volume pedal at the end of the chain (essentailly an OBEL without the extra wire).  I do most of my tweaking on the amp, with the final tweaking back at the guitar employing the LPF and the Q.  It's amazing how great an effect comes from just a very small turn of that filter critter!  I do wish I could get rid of 1-3 and 8-10 and have the LPF start at what is now the "4", and end at what is now the "7", so I could have more nuanced control. 

Bill, tgo

Bill,

No OBEL. None of my Alembics have one. I wanted on in my last build but between the 3 way switch, two filters, two volumes, boost with gain knob and LED switch, there wasn't enough room under the hood. I had an OBEL on the Tiger replica I sold and loved it. The 13 pound guitar was another story. BTW, I also use my volume pedal at the end of the signal chain the way you do.

I completely agree about the filter sweep. It really only seems to have that sweet spot in the middle third. I would love to have that same level of control spread out over the entire range of the knob. Wonder if that is a possible "tweak" they could do? I never thought to ask.


Regards,

Jonathan

5a quilt top

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Re: Getting Into Treble
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2016, 12:11:40 PM »
It's been my experience that the higher the volume and/or more complex the instrumentation, the more desirable it is to use less gain and fewer effects (especially reverb and delay). The guitar tones I like when when playing by myself in my practice room seldom work with a band in a practice or performance situation and vice-versa.

A high-gain, effects-laden guitar tone sounds great by itself, but will get wiped out when mixed with other instruments because the bass chews up the lows, the cymbals mask the highs and the keys or second guitar neutralize everything in between. This results in a desire to rotate the volume knob clockwise - which ignites a volume war where no one wins and the big loser is usually the audience.

I think clarity is your best ally in these situations. Chose a clear "foundation" tone that allows what you are playing to cut through or blend as required and then add minimal embellishment if you need to color it.

I agree with Bill, how the other instruments sound will affect your tone, so being able and open to adjusting it on the fly will pay dividends. I also like the practice rig / gig rig approach as suggested by Keith. Using each for their intended purpose = less tweaking and more playing.

In addition, technique is important. If your technique results in indistinct notes or extra strings ringing, you will have the mistaken impression that you are not cutting through. Using too much gain and/or too many effects often masks or compounds this, making it more difficult to figure out why you are disappearing in the mix.