Author Topic: Bone vs. brass nut. (Read 465 times)

jfoster · « **on:** May 08, 2003, 07:16:48 AM »

Are there any advantages to a brass string nut vs. a bone string nut?

dnburgess · « **Reply #1 on:** May 08, 2003, 03:21:37 PM »

I think the theory is that the nut should be made of the same material as the frets to minimise the change in tone between fretted and open notes.

rami · « **Reply #2 on:** May 08, 2003, 07:37:13 PM »

I feel a brass nut will contribute (if ever so slightly) to the sustain of a bass. It also gives the bass a more upscale and finished look.

Also, a brass nut won't crack the first time you decide on a heavier string guage.

bigredbass · « **Reply #3 on:** May 08, 2003, 11:50:34 PM »

jfoster:

Good to have you here with us.

Nut materials are a source of endless discussion, just like brands of strings, amps, etc.

Bone is one choice, along with the synthetics (corian, plastic, the various graphite based materials) and brass. In my experience, I'd agree with Rami: On a bass with big (relative to a guitar) roundwounds (more abrasive than ground- or flatwounds, although they would be just as stout tension-wise), bone can break real easily.

I'm not much of a fan of bone, after having a BB2000 Yamaha that spit 'em out like bad teeth several times before I went back to the brass nut it came with. The SwingBass E just broke it over and over.

Plus, as soon as you fret a note, the nut is out of the picture sonically.

However, on ALEMBICs, a brass nut is an entirely different animal.

ALEMBICs have an A D J U S T A B L E brass nut.

This is a feature VERY rarely seen on other basses. On any other bass, to adjust the height at the nut leaves you with one of two choices:

1) You're in luck! There's enough meat under the slots in the nut to where we can file a little more out to lower your action

. . . or more likely

2) We're going to have to REPLACE this nut (or pull it and shim it, IF it came off in one piece, then file the slots a little).

Of course, if it was too LOW for you to begin with, it's still gotta be replaced. Time for a trip to the guitar tech, or you can do it yourself. And on previous basses I've owned, I'd get the neck relief perfect, only to get a rattle from the nut end of the fingerboard.

ALEMBICs skip this altogether. Action too low? Too high? Three allen screws, a wrench, a ruler or feeler guages, and now your action job can even include the nut: Just not possible on virtually any other bass!

This is just one more feature that sets these basses apart from everything else.

And again, like Rami said, they look great!

J o e y

jfoster · « **Reply #4 on:** May 09, 2003, 06:08:31 AM »

Thanks to all for the feed back. Good to be here with you. I'm a reativley new bass player. I was a drummer in the 70's but now in my 40's with kids, playing the drums again is out of the question. I took up the bass & became very interested in what makes them tick & what makes a good bass different from a bad bass. I don't own an Alembic YET but just built a drop dead gorgeous custom job through warmoth. Spent an entire month just finishing the body. (Burl maple top on mohagany. It's not an Alembic but it's not hard to see where the inspiration came from)Being a closet perfectionist, I'm constantly experimenting with anything to change or improve the tone. I guess it didn't make much sense to me to have metal frets, a metal bridge & a bone nut. I thought I would pick the brains of the finest minds in bass playing out there. Much appreciated.

jfoster · « **Reply #5 on:** May 09, 2003, 06:15:10 AM »

Does any body know of a source for adjustable brass string nuts? (P Bass spec)

bob · « **Reply #6 on:** May 09, 2003, 10:12:39 AM »

I'd appreciate it if someone would take a moment to describe how the adjustable nut is designed (I'm thinking again...). I haven't had an opportunity to look at one close up yet, and after browsing through the featured customs for a while was not able to find a photo that answered my questions.

I understand this much: you have a big chunk of brass with grooves for the strings; a center lock-down screw; and two height-adjusting screws. What I can't tell is what's underneath this stuff.

My first guess would be that the center lock-down screw is a normal screw (with a head) that goes into a threaded insert in the neck. The outer screws could then be the headless variety, with their bottom ends pushing against the neck, so that when you turn them the nut itself rides up/down the screws.

But I can't imagine the screws just pushing against the wood, so it seems like there must be a metal insert below them - or possibly there is a whole second piece of brass forming the base?

thrill74 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 09, 2003, 11:02:39 AM »

Everywhere a screw goes a brass insert is first placed...

wayne · « **Reply #8 on:** May 09, 2003, 11:19:00 AM »

Bob-

You're assumption is correct. There is a brass base-plate underneath. That plate has a single hole through it in the middle that leads to the threaded insert that accepts the lock-down screw. All three screws are of the headless variety, and the two adjusters are actually pointed on the end against the base-plate.

FYI - there are a few wood screws on each Alembic. They only use the inserts where the screw may need to be removed or adjusted repeatedly. The sustain block is held with a single wood screw and the tailpiece has 3 holding it down.

Now, I've heard rumors that some players have the sustain block installed with a threaded insert so that they can swap out blocks of different materials.....talk about tweaking the tone........

C-Ya.......wayne

bob · « **Reply #9 on:** May 09, 2003, 12:04:49 PM »

Thanks, Wayne.

Yeah, I'm one of those tweakers who's going to try different sustain blocks. Mica originally suggested switching to a threaded insert here, but I opted to go with two wood screws instead. I'm not going to change them *that* often, and I figure the wood blocks could use an extra screw for a good snug fit.

jfoster · « **Reply #10 on:** May 09, 2003, 12:33:50 PM »

Hi Bob:I think you can allways install threaded insets down the road if you had to.

bigredbass · « **Reply #11 on:** May 10, 2003, 12:06:55 PM »

Bob:

Wayne had is just right. I'd add that on the top 'half' of the nut, visualise three holes: On the five-string, between the B & E, in the bottom of the A-string slot, and between the D & G.
The two 'betweens' are the height adjusters, the middle locks your heights. And all three work with the brass base, the bottom 'half'.

They are all, as Wayne said, allen screws that sit down in their holes. Your hands or the strings can't touch them.

While nut height adjustments aren't often necessary, what it allowed me to do was finally set in my mind the variables of set-up. On other instruments I've owned, I could never perfect my setups as I was reluctant to replace a nut that was pretty close, but not exactly where I would have put it. I was also really reluctant to start filing the slots down with my knowledge base in those days.

I was always of the opinion that my basses should relatively play as easily as a very slinky guitar.
This was only reinforced when I moved to Nashville, where a LOT of players use a high action to eliminate noise when recording . . . funny, I always thought proper technique did that.

Suddenly having a movable fixture for a nut allowed me to really make the bass UNPLAYABLE while figuring this out, and work myself up to my current setup as I slowly 'got it'. I read an interview with Anthony Jackson where he suggested a setup with a higher nut and lower height at the high end of the neck. Well, he had to have Vinnie and Joey change several nuts to figure it out; all I had to do was move a couple of screws !

It's really a terrific feature, and a fabulous learning tool if you're so inclined. On an axe like your forthcoming fretless, your action could be fabulous, with no frets to get in your way.

J o e y

bob · « **Reply #12 on:** May 10, 2003, 01:53:35 PM »

Okay, there's still one picky little detail which is puzzling me. Wayne says All three screws are of the headless variety (and Joey and Mica have both confirmed that they're all just little allen screws).

So how does the lock-down work??? If it has no head, then it must thread into both the top and bottom portions of the nut. Unless one end has reverse threads, (a) it can't possibly tighten anything and (b) it shouldn't even be able to thread unless the nut height is some exact multiple of the thread spacing (or the threads are quite sloppy).

I understand that the main purpose is not really to lock it down (string pressure will do that just fine), but primarily to keep the thing from falling off when you remove the strings. So point (a) might not be relevant, but I'm still curious about (b).

I guess the threads need to be fairly loose anyway, since the nut must be able to angle, so maybe that's also enough to tolerate height differences of half a thread size or so? But unless I'm missing something, the center screw will not actually exert any pressure to bring the nut closer to the neck.

bigredbass · « **Reply #13 on:** May 10, 2003, 11:03:16 PM »

Well, Bob, you got me. I've never taken mine apart to see HOW it does its thing.

So WHO does know what the innards of our little brass friend looks like?

J o e y

jfoster · « **Reply #14 on:** May 11, 2003, 04:16:17 AM »

Oh Mica, Where art thou.