Take pride in America's Products

[elzie]

 
 
(Message edited by elzie on January 22, 2004)

[the_schwartz]

drz:  
 
You make some good points about illegal immigrants (a big issue here in California) and the American working class.  Unfortunately, maintaining the status quo benefits politicians who court Latino voters and employers who enjoy (and in many cases depend on) the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide.  So politicians have little motivation to address this issue.  
 
The common thread between illegal immigration and exporting jobs to developing countries is that both phenomena drive down wages for all workers and profits for businesses that pay American workers fair wages.  If this trend continues, the American middle class as we know it will eventually give way to mass poverty.  America will more closely resemble a developing nation, with a tiny, ultra-wealthy elite ruling class and hundreds of millions of desperately poor people.  
 
The middle class is the goose that lays the golden egg of economic prosperity in America, and corporate America is slowly strangling the goose.  Corporate America is being very short-sighted, sacrificing America's future for this year's positive earnings trend.  Nobody seems to be thinking about maximizing value for more than the next few years.  
 
Joe
 
(Message edited by the_schwartz on January 22, 2004)

[drz]

Well said !!!!

[rogertvr]

To all of the Americans in here who are still living in the US and agree or disagree with DRZ - I say Welcome to the UK. We're taxed to death, legislated to death and we're the most watched country on Earth - yes, even more so than the Chinese.
 
You think you have it hard? Come here!  I won't go into too many details, no doubt GCHQ is reading every word I write but for a start, a litre of 95RON petrol here is now 76 pence - and most of that is tax. A packet of cigarettes (I don't smoke) is around ?4.50, a pint of beer is well over ?2.00. To road tax my cars for a year costs ?160 per car. Insurance costs - don't go there, even that is taxed, as are my electricity, gas and water bills.
 
Welcome to the UK - Labour government - tax and (don't spend) - and still end up with a massive multi-billion pound debt that would buy half of Africa if it were profit.......
 
You're not hard-done by in the States, trust me. What is going on there has long been underway in Europe - especially the UK....

[dannobasso]

I am all for supporting manufacturers of quality products. I try to buy American so others who live here can support themselves. Politics aside, people with vision and money create jobs when the demand for goods and services becomes a profitable event. Not enough profit, bye bye company, bye bye jobs. I work on average 6 days a week to be able to be a gear head and buy Alembics because I love them! But I don't have a wife and kids to worry about. The current generation in the position of influence has been extremely self indulgent and short on sacrifice. I'm in the next one down (X)the ladder and many of us are no better. We all want to make a living that will support a certain lifestyle. We then get used to that level and then want to move to the next higher one. We buy on credit, carry home equity loans, lease cars we could not otherwise afford, we eat out more than any other previous population etc. People don't want to do without and neither do their kids. I belong to the  largest Union in the Country. I'm not a fan of it. I pay because I have to in order to work in the system. At one time belonging meant that the best trained and qualified people were delivering a service. Now it is more about protection regardless of talent. (my opinion only folks) If my stress outweighs my compensation, I'll bail and do something else. I won't milk the system because it's hard to get rid of me.  
 I support Alembic because the company creates what I want and the family there is exceptional in their quality of character. In a land that pays athletic entertainers millions to reward their talent, quality basses and guitars are very reasonably priced. If they were made in Pago Pago I'd buy from them. I'd just have to have a great long distance package.
Roger, today petral was $1.47 a gallon, cigs $4.75 (I don't smoke) I am very glad to live here, work hard and pay my way. I lived in Galway, Ireland attending UCG for a semester. Not cheap but the locals didn't pay tuition. I was happy to to help support the population that produced my ancestors.  Support who you believe in and what you believe in, but not to the detrement of others (intentionally). Support the Santa Rosa economy! Order another bass today! I'm doing my part for the cause!

[thebass]

Almost everything has been said. The taxes and costs in the EU and especially here in Germany might be even worse than in the UK. It was american companies who thought us the global economy. We see the effect now but there is no way back. But raising the fence high enough for other markets to keep them out is not the solution. In Germany we had to learn what happens to countries which had closed out the rest of the world for 40 years ...
 
I guess in every highly industrialized country you will find the same discussion. Just exchange made in USA by made in .....

[effclef]

Well I'm late to this thread but it is not a new one, at least in conversations I've heard.
 
To me, it's not so much that I walk into Wal-Mart and find that something I want to buy is made in China. It's that there's no CHOICE of buying something identical, made somewhere else!
 
Not only that, but many of the Chinese-made products I have bought have turned out to be just plain shoddy. A couple of generations ago, Made in Japan was awful. Then it was Made in Hong Kong. (That's China now, folks.)  
 
Now I see things like Engineered in Japan, assembled in China. It's obvious companies see the reputation issue.  
 
Anyway - I am not an economist and have not taken a single course on it nor have I read a book about it. But from a gut-level US citizen feeling, I believe that this is an important point: if the person making product X can afford to buy product X on his salary, he will probably take more care in making product X.
 
This is the reason I bought a Taylor acoustic guitar, made in California, partly because I read the reviews and heard the SOUNDS OF WOOD AND STEEL compact disc, but partly because I knew some poor chap in Fuzhou making a plywood guitar probably could never afford to buy one, and probably has to crank out five per hour...
 
(The Taylor was just sold to a happy buyer...the 1-3/4 nut meant I could actually play chords but I want to concentrate on bass only, at least until I can learn what the heck four strings do.
Model 310...beautiful...their low end model at the time I bought it in 2001.)
 
Another thing: though it's great that Nissan employs all those Tennesseeans, how much of the money being made from the cars is then being reinvested in US businesses? There's more to having a business in the US than paying a workforce, at least on a moral level.
 
I would much rather pay $40 for a pair of jeans made with care in the USA than $15 for a similar pair made sloppily in China.
 
I think the real issue is with quality. Anyone here on this website obviously knows quality! It was not that long ago that a Japanese camera (vs. a US or German one) was a piece of junk. I expect that we will eventually see China's reputation for quality products improving. But at the same time, there's an emotional resistance to this, when I see local jobs being outsourced, and manufacturing plants closing. Reeducate the production workers? As what? Wal Mart associates? And if they go to engineering school, will there be US design companies left for them to go after graduation??
 
It's a mess at times. The human race will survive. The US will not be top dog for the next 500 years, surely. A hard lesson to learn.
 
As Hollis said, we're all in this together. I keep waiting for the aliens to land and find us good to eat. ;-)
 
EffClef
 
PS I also think the one art which can transcend all borders, all languages, and all differences we humans separate ourselves with is MUSIC.

[hollis]

We are the minstrels
blessed or cursed
if not left for us to proclaim  
who then?
now or when?
Sing it out for all to hear
let MUSIC flow  
far and near
let it flow
 
I'm not really sure what that has to do with this thread.......I just struck me this way

[musikill]

I couldn't read all of the posts here because my head was about to explode.  Virtually all of the points mentioned here are valid, which proves we are a global economy and there is no going back.  I live in California and I know this is not politically correct but the illegal immigration must be stopped.  It is bankrupting the state which will have enormous worldwide impact.
Also true is the fact that we are exporting too many jobs.  Granted, manufacturing is no longer financially possible in the US except for very high end professional and consumer products - like Alembic.  Who cares if all the parts are not made here - if Alembic decides the parts are the best for their basses that's good enough for me.
There is a consequence to all of this globalization that seems to be tragically overlooked.  That is the loss of mutual loyalty that once was the stabilizing element of the American workplace.  Not so long ago companies valued their employees, and most employees felt loyal to those companies.  This was mutually benificial, companies did not have to worry much about turnover or theft etc. by employees and employees felt a certain sense of security that they could buy a house and have a job long enough to pay for it.  Corporate America has become so obsessed with greed that it has lost it's morale.  It is almost guaranteed that you will be unemployed at some point in your adult life.  As you get older (over 40) this becomes a frightening prospect, unless you are the exception - people over 40 are not usually the first choice among job candidates.  Part of the method behind this new age of corporate greed is the elimination of benifits such as retirement plans, 401k plans etc.  Very few companies offer these to their new employees and in fact take them away from existing employees.  I am just one of millions of people nearing 50 years old that is faced with the prospect of not being able to afford to retire - I am paid well but this has only been the case for the last few years so investing is something I could only recently afford.  Frankly the investing has only been a break even excercise.  I am one of the lucky one's in that I look at least 20 years younger than I am so I'm working and hope to continue to do so.  But this country is facing a disaster in the next 20 - 25 years - an entire generation will be retiring and many of them will not have the resources to maintain their health or nominal standard of living due to the loss of the benefits that were once part of the working package.  I'll bet everyone's parents have some sort of retirement, but how many of us can really say we will have the $1.5M it is generally said you need to retire?  This is the national tragedy that we are setting ourselves up for as a result of the loss of corporate morality.  We as a nation of people need to restore our compassion for each other and recognize where we are heading by putting profit above all else.
I will never post any non-Alembic subject again - but I could not let this go by without jumping in.  To all of you who live in other countries and have read through our complaining, I am sorry and I do not mind at all if your products are sold here.  If people are buying them they must be good - I drive a German sports car and my brother drives a Swedish sports car.  I'm guilty!
greg

[dean_m]

Nothing to be guilty of Greg.  You know, my wife and I were just talking about that very same thing last night.  We have a little ways to go before retirement (about 25 years, 20 if I'm real lucky) but considering what I do for a living, I may never (be able) to retire financially and mentally.  Being a musician has put me in a very interesting position.  I really don't make that much money to invest even though I do a little bit.  I certainly won't have the 1.5M in the bank in the next 20 years, that's for sure.  And I have to think, will I ever want to retire.  
With that being said, I just wanted to say that you brought up some very valid and interesting points.  As has everyone!!!  I'm glad you brought this up.
I say we all move to Belgium to drink beer and play bass with our brother Paul TBO.
 
Peace,
Dino

[David Houck]

Dino; I was just wondering, does Paul have room in his house for all of us, or should we take tents to set up in the yard?

[dean_m]

I never said anything about moving in to his house.  Let's just make sure the pub down the road is big enough though.  Although tents might be a good idea so when we all pass out, we have some place to sleep. HA!!!!

[dadabass2001]

I'll need a big tent for me, my Alembics, 4 different bass rigs (old, new, small, medium) and my Mac computer. Oh yeah, and a change of clothes or two. Hey Paul tbo, how cold do winters get in Belgium? Will I need to bring my own stockings? Can I stop typing now?

[elzie]

Greg, you make some very valid points that hit very close to home for me.  
 
Not many of you know this, but I had a major surgery in July 2002. Recovery time was a year. During this time out living( yeah, right) on short term, then long term disability, I still went into work to help the company. Heck, I even took machine parts home to fix them!  
 
I had a lot of loyalty to the company and did whatever I could to be helpful. I now realize that this was a huge mistake.  
 
When I returned to work in July 2003, I temporarily injured the area of surgery so I neede to be out about another 3 weeks. While I was out I saw my job posted on monster.com. The friday before I was to return to work, I recieved a letter via Fedex that explained that I was fired. No severance, no benefits, nothing!  
 
After 8 years of loyal service, the company didn't even have the decency to tell me to my face, or by phone, that I was done.....and I had already spent my entire 401k on medical bills, taxes and trying to keep my head above water. To make matters worse, the person that fired me was the one who I had to go through to get my 401k money!
 
There are many more horrid details to this story, but I don't want to bore anyone But you are correct in saying that corporate America has truly lost sight of their best asset- their people. It was a hard, bitter lesson for me, but I will never forget it.......  
 
Paul TGO  
 
 
 
(Message edited by elzie on February 11, 2004)

[palembic]

Winters not cold.
Enough place in the wood (old boy-scout domain with specal beers).
Everybody welcome.
Paul TGO ...and especially you  brother!
I liek to meet the people in thi s club. It has nothing to do with the beer or the thongs ...but by people talking, listening and learning.
 
Paul the bad one
 
 
PS: tomorrow I'm going in prison.
 
 
 
For a GIG morons!!!!!