Author Topic: Audiences around the world  (Read 595 times)

David Houck

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Audiences around the world
« on: May 12, 2004, 08:13:33 AM »
Since our group here has members from around the world, I thought I would ask about a thought that occurs to me from time to time.  Forgive me if this seems completely off-base.
 
Let me try to set up the question.  For only the purpose of asking this question, I'm positing two types of audience; those who appreciate the musicianship and those who don't.  For example, in the US in the sixties many fans of the Beatles were impressed by their musicianship, while many others loved them because they thought the guys looked cute.  In the late forties, again in the US, many fans loved Bebop because of the incredible musicianship of players like Parker and Gillespie; while many others turned away from this trend because they couldn't dance to it.
 
Another example, many fans of Phish go to the concerts because of the musicianship, not because they put on an entertaining show; while many fans of Kiss go to the shows purely because of the entertainment of makeup, blood spitting, strutting and jumping around the stage, adrenalin pumping volume, lights and lasers, etc.  (Please forgive me, Kiss fans; I know that there are Kiss fans who for instance appreciate Ace Frehley's guitar work, I'm just making generalizations here.)
 
Various observations have suggested to me that today, as a generalization, people living in Europe, and perhaps Japan, have a greater appreciation of musicianship than people living in the US.  An example of why this might be the case is that great jazz players seem to tour Europe and Japan more than they tour the US, even if they live in the US.
 
So do you agree or disagree with this generalization; or have any comment at all?  I know I'm opening myself to all kinds of questions about my characterizations of musicianship; and that I should probably delete this before hitting the Post button.  But, does it seem to be the case that the best musicians prefer playing in Europe; and do they do so because the audiences are more appreciative and supportive?

bsee

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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2004, 08:53:50 AM »
One of my favorite bands has more of a stage show than Kiss ever did, and they were th emost popular in Japan.  It's hard to generalize anything while retaining legitimacy.
 
By the way, check out The Big Nazo Band if you've never heard of them before.  Killer musicians and a very fun show when they're around.  www.bignazo.com

keavin

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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2004, 09:18:51 AM »
i'm with you dave i love the musicianship more than looks,however also  modern late music alot of it is sampled or remakes where there not many artists writing as much as they used too,example hip hop,is 90%someone elses stuff,(sampled)and alot of rock is written by these new rockers,(but some sampled)what i like about rock is you will see a BAND on stage just like you did in the day more than you will see two turn tables,so i a big fan of artists performing with instruments,also im a jazz musician and a  contemporary writer,and grew up in the 60s on motown,so im glad i was around when real music was being made

bracheen

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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2004, 09:32:09 AM »
Interesting question Dave.  Would you believe that a musician in a club on night walked up to my wife and myself on his break and thanked us for paying attention during the set?  He said that he gets frustrated playing his best and people are just milling around, talking, laughing, or whatever.  He might as well have been a radio.  The club is in the US, the musician was from Belfast.
 
Sam
 

smokin_dave

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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2004, 10:36:21 AM »
I myself am looking forward to playing in Europe sometime this year and I see it all over around here.Good musicians from the area flying over sea's to a much more appreciative audience is common place.I know a singer from around here who fly's to Italy and sells out all of his shows months in advance and has to almost beg to get gigs here.And is woefully underpaid when he does.The late,great Luther Allison moved to Paris and was treated like a king/star which made him a lot more noticeable when he moved back to the states before his early demise.It is real nice and rare when somebody comes up to you and thanks you for playing for them and it's to those people I play for every night.Odd to see it work the other way around Sam.Most nights I feel like a part of a juke box and nothing more.I have friends who toured Europe and during they're time off between gigs,they would set up in a little club in say,Germany and play Blues and Rockabilly just for the reaction.Thats what I am looking forward to the most.Seeing the kids shake it up.  

palembic

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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2004, 11:02:17 AM »
Well ...
I am in bar-dwelling-type op bands and let me tell you that attention is a thing you can interpret.
For example: last saturday gig in the Stapleton in Leuven.
A part of the audience just listening and enjoying the music.
A part enjoying the company they are with. The fact that there is a band playing adds to their good-feeling-together (ok they have to talk louder to each other because we are playing but ...well ...I am not Brother David TLO yet LOL).
You have the real partying people!
We had:
- 8 teams from 6 countries rugby-players making fun
- 1 dude celebrating his last weekend as a bachelor and the whole gang was dressed up as a scott WITH a kilt WITHOUT underpants.
 
Dancing ...
 
 
with Irish girls management assistants celebrating a birthday ....
 
 
and in the saem time there were 4 (FOUR) bassplayers (I SUSPECT them to be a bassplayer) staring at me, Bonnie and Tweak Peaks ...man ...really eating my fingers-on-the-neck with their eyes.
 
It all happens together.
 
 
Paul TBO

bracheen

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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2004, 11:44:38 AM »
Wow!  The Stapleton sounds like a great place.

hollis

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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2004, 12:02:01 PM »
Paul,  
 
I hope the Scott kept his spinning down to a slow twirl! (LOL)  
 
Dave,  
 
I'm glad you brought up this subject,subjective though it may be.... I have often thought about this very thing.  I think that one of the main reasons for the difference is possibly the music industry itself.... It seems to me that much of the music promoted today has very little to do with music (although many of the studio players are highly qualified).  It feels to me like the visual impact is at least as important to today's promoters as the musicianship.  
 
Maybe musicianship is the wrong word....Maybe content is what seems to be slipping to the back burners.  It's all very elusive, and somewhat sad to see.  
 
Of course, as you said, this has been the case for quite some time....Remember Beatle wigs? Beatle Boots?  And yet, the content of the music seemed paramount....  
 
It's my guess that whenever large amounts of money enter the equation, all bets are off....  
 
I very rarely play for pay anymore, although there was a time in my life when I made a relatively comfortable living at it.....  
 
I'm sure there is a way to make a living playing and still maintain your artistic character, I just couldn't find it.....  
 
Play? Oh yeah!! I play daily for several hours and I will as long as my fingers allow.  
 
When I play in public, not much has changed over the years ... Some folks come to listen, some come to dance, others come to get drunk or high and/or get laid.....on occasion, some good folks come to join in... I almost always enjoy the experience.  
 
Here's to the hope that other's are enjoying themselves at least half as much as I.    
 
 
 
(Message edited by hollis on May 12, 2004)

811952

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2004, 12:44:25 PM »
My experience playing jazz/fusion in front of European audiences was that they were stone silent until the last note, then applauded if they liked the music.  If we did a tune they didn't like, then the stone silence continued until we played something they liked.  YES audiences of old used to be much the same; staying totally silent until the last note.  I also remember hearing a King Crimson bootleg recording from a high school gymnasium or something in the mid-80s where someone in the crowd yelled for them to turn-up, and Fripp suggested the crowd simply turn-down instead.  I find that when I play jazz state-side anymore, often the audience expects to be wowed without having their conversation interrupted unless it's a hard-core jazzophile venue.  Whatever the case, like Hollis, I always have a good time.  And I'm old and treacherous enough of a player that even the the most acrid musician-critics usually seem to appreciate or even enjoy most of what they hear.  It really helps that I usually play with a rock-solid and tasteful drummer (my favorite drummer of all time, in fact)..
 
John the Old and Treacherous One

alembic76407

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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2004, 02:16:10 PM »
Brother Paul, LOUD is more than volume, keep trying, you'll get there!!!
 
David T (THE LOUD ONE)

dannobasso

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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2004, 05:41:01 PM »
I believe people experience what they want or need to out of a night out. I love fusion and good jazz. (by good I mean that the artist is actually creating with melodic content as well as technique not just flogging us with notes, cause' if I want to hear every scale that someone knows I can just hang around a college practice room and skip the 2 drink minimum per set). But even I get overloaded some times. There were times when I went and just got to release a lot of emotion and energy. Now I prefer to give the energy when I play live. For some, it's a way to bond socially with their peers. Remeber when it was a badge of honor to wear a concert shirt the next day at school? Dude! Where were your seats? Other use the music as a background to the other pursuits of the evening. (dating etc.) Many a lady has suffered for their man by going to a Gong concert. Flying teapot, don't need a taxi!
There are some genres that I can't stand but I can appreciate if they are performed well. Music as art, as therapy, as soundtrack or as inspiration can fit in wherever you need it. I confess that I rarely go to shows unless I fell like I want to get my musical butt kicked by world class player. Gearheads always check out the racks and rigs and compare notes.(always do that!) I will say that I have progressed beyond standing around with my arms folded with that go ahead impress me look on my mug. But wherever you go for what ever reason, pleas bring your earplugs so you can hear well into your twilight years. PSA # 225
Danno

gbarchus

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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2004, 07:59:41 PM »
I spent the last six years in Japan playing western pop music (all styles). Audiences really appreciated live music. I actually earned quite a bit of money busking on the street. Now I'm in the live music capital of the world and if you're not famous, audiences can ignore you.
 
Gale

David Houck

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 06:50:16 PM »
This was an interesting discussion with a variety of responses.
 
Thanks!

alemboid

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2004, 10:56:56 AM »
Dave,
 
Thank you for bringing this up. I apologise in advance for mentioning specific names, but here goes:
 
Popular music from the 40's through the 70's and into the mid eighties largely was creative, where live performances were done by the band alone. Since then, much of what is pushed onto the listening audience as the thing to buy and enjoy is not much more than a cabaret, thanks to Janet Jackson, Britney Spears and others that rely on stage dancers to entertain. The amount of actual talent varies by act. Sadly, it has been said that if it was about talent, we wouldn't know who Britney Spears is. Gino Vanelli at one time performed concerts with a live drummer, one guitarist and an Apple computer.  
 
The age of computers, specifically sampling and artificially generated sounds affected the music industry too. How many bassists and drummers lost work to a machine? The New York jingle industry has collapsed as a result of this. Now, its just one person with Pro Tools selling a product for less and cutting out actual instrumentalists with their Korg Triton keyboard.  
 
Cookie cutter bands like Sum 41, Blink 182 and the like (being that they follow very similar forms and sound much alike) stir an audience to a frenzy with their volume and behaviour, not necessarily their musicianship. A friend, that happens to be Vice President of A&R at a major recording label laments that there are no guitar solos in this new music because the guitarists can't play them.
 
I was at a performance featuring pianist Bob James, who had to stop mid-song because the audience talking volume was too loud (in the U.S.)
 
Sadly, in the U.S., many people consider being a Musician as being Broke, simply because Arts programs have failed here and since the radio plays for free, shouldn't the musicians that perform the music? That attitude makes me ill. Many musicians study their craft for many years longer than an Attorney for example, yet one is looked upon with esteem more than the other, simply because of the income more likely gained by the practice of law. Yet, the musician is the doctor, psychologist, mother, brother and lover that gets these audiences through good times, hard times, traffic, celebrations, worship, funerals and video games.  
 
In conclusion, I believe through my own experience that lands outside the U.S. have a better appreciation for musicianship. The U.S. suffers because of the dumbing down of audiences  as led by the media and industry, and as a result, people are starving for content and quality. That is why Alicia Keys and Norah Jones do so well- quality musicianship/ songwriting & performance- and hey! No background dancers!
 
My 49 cents,
 
Bryant

dnburgess

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2004, 04:37:17 PM »
Another factor could be the reverse not invented here syndrome. That is, the tendency in every country to appreciate foreign artists more than local artists. The US is both the largest manufacturer of content and the largest domestic market. Therefore, US artists collectively benefit most from foreign appreciation as well as suffer most from local indifference.
 
I wonder whether some of our European brothers and sisters could tell us whether artists from their home countries feel better appreciated abroad?
 
David B.