Author Topic: Quest for tone (Read 341 times)

Dale M Williams · « **on:** August 25, 2004, 11:44:33 AM »

I COULD USE SOME ADVICE. I HAVE INVESTED A LOT OF MONEY IN EQUIPMENT AND STILL HAVEN'T ACHIEVED THE TONE I AM AFTER. THE MUSIC I PLAY IS OLDIES, MAINLY 50'S, 60'S. I DO NOT SLAP OR SOLO. I AM AFTER A DEEP, LOW, WARM TONE. ALL I SEEM TO GET ARE A LOT OF MID-RANGE (BARKY) TONES.

MY EQUIPMENT IS
ALEMBIC SHORT SCALE SC STD
F-1X, STEWART 2.1
SWR CABS, 2 GOLIATH JR (2X10) AND 1 SON OF BERTHA (1X15)

I SUSPECT THE WEAK LINK IN MY SEARCH FOR LOWER TONES IS EITHER THE SHORT SCALE BASS, MY AMP SETTINGS, OR THE SWR CABS.

ANY INPUT WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

THANKS,
DALE

dnburgess · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2004, 02:07:09 PM »

I don't think the scale is the only (or even the main) factor. For many years I played only a short scale and wouldn't have described the tone as overly barky.

I'm not familiar with SWR speakers, but there shouldn't be any problem with the F1X/Stewart combo. The easiest thing to do would be to take your bass to a music store and try a few different amplification rigs. That will quickly tell you whether the problem is in the bass or the rig.

If its in the bass, try different strings as the first step.

David B.

bsee · « **Reply #2 on:** August 25, 2004, 02:15:58 PM »

I agree with David on taking the bass to a store. Certainly, if your bass is an SC standard with a maple top and no purpleheart or ebony in the neck laminates, then it will have less of a bottom than a bass with a cocobolo top and ebony neck laminates. Another consideration would be strings. I would think you need fairly heavy strings on there, maybe a set of 50-110 would fatten up the tone?

-Bob

dadabass2001 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 25, 2004, 06:04:20 PM »

Hello Dale,
IMHO You might also try flat wound strings. Are you looking for a Joe Osborne kind of sound? James Jamerson? In both cases, I believe these gods of the studios in the 60s NEVER changed their strings.
The SC model obviously has the capability to sound very bright, but also very deep. What are the settings of your low pass filters? Full counterclockwise on the filters should roll off all but the deepest frequencies (nothing above 350 htz I believe).
The F-1X is modeled on the tone circuit of the Fender Showman head, and I can't think of a more appropriate model for 50s and 60s tones.
I have a rig very similar to yours (1 SWR Goliath III Jr and 1 Crate 1-15 cab driven by an F-1X into a QSC power amp). Are you using the biamp outputs of your F-1X or the full range output? If you're using the biamp outputs, you can reduce the high frquency output on the front panel.
Mike

bigredbass · « **Reply #4 on:** August 25, 2004, 11:29:21 PM »

I'd think that sound is within reach with your rig.

The short scale is fine.

For a Series One, you'll need to roll of some highs, and fatten up the mids to lows. Remember that your electronics have MUCH higher resolution than an old PBass, so you'll need to begin at the bass to approximate that sound. Strings with less growl will help as well.

The F1x's ancestral roots to Fender circuits are certainly true and helpful, as pointed out above.

If it were me, I'd only use ONE 210 cab with the Bertha. Turn Bertha's tweeter all the way down, back off on the Goliath tweeter to about halfway.
And remember on a biamp rig (you ARE biamping with the F1x, yes?), the biggest/quickest tone control is the blend between the high and low pass, so lean to the low pass for more thump. I've often found I can induce a hump by going to a crossover point around 200 to 300 hz instead of the more usual 100 or so.

So many of those old records were cut with fliptop Ampegs. The tech specs of that amp are prehistoric alongside your Stewart/F1x combination. Not to mention the huge jump from an old Fender to a Series One. Together it's a huge jump in resolution audio wise. Not to mention the audio vagueness of 50s recording technology.

With a high tech bass/rig, you'll have to 'dumb it down' to go to that old neighborhood. Remember that your sound is the sum total of all parts in the chain: Bass, preamp, power, cabinets. Just visualize that sonic signature and tune your rig towards it one piece at a time.
All the old records were almost exclusively cut with fifteens (no 410/tweeters in those days) thru low power tube amps.

Well, now let's see . . . you might even try full range thru ONLY the Bertha . . . .

'That' tone is the real anchor of a band. I often see guys playing live with a fabulous mid-range sound with just no bottom and there's nothing to hang your hat on. A real shame . .

J o e y

kungfusheriff · « **Reply #5 on:** August 25, 2004, 11:54:03 PM »

Aged stainless-steel flatwound strings (TI Jazz Flats come recommended by many), high action, and an Ampeg 15 speaker cabinet will get you most of the way there but the rest is in your hands and the bass' tone control settings.
Try rolling the treble (no Q) on the neck pup most of the way back and accenting the low mids by blending in some bridge pup--as little as possible--and using the Q switch.
Pluck the strings with the pad, not the tip, of your fingers over the truss rod cover, not the pickups. That should get you started...works for me.
Oh, and there's no need to shout. Not all of us here are guitar players, you know (grin).

88persuader · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26, 2004, 02:35:34 AM »

I think you may want to consider going with Ampeg SVT amplification. Maybe the SVT PRO4 ... tube amps tend to be a little warmer. I have a SC short scale and get all the bottom I want from my Ampeg SVT PRO 5 with a 4x10 ampeg cab. Although I'm not trying to get that classic sound. Honestly, at the risk of sounding anti-Alembic (which I'm not by any means) I have to add ... if you're playing all oldies and want the original sound those bass players got you probably would be happier with a Fender P or J bass and an Ampeg SVT 300 with an 8X10 cab. After all, that's what most of those old bass players used. Personally I prefer the clearity and punch I get from my Alembics and can't see myself ever going back to traditional basses but for that classic 50's & 60's sound it's hard to touch the Fender/Ampeg combo. As far as the SC is concerned try rolling back the treble on both your pickups almost full and put the Q switch on the neck pick up down and the other up. You'll get a more muffled sound, less distinct ... more classic. I agree with Joey's idea of dumbing down your system to try to get that classic tone. You may also try running without the 2x10's.
Ray

dela217 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 26, 2004, 05:55:15 AM »

I find to get this sound I must use flatwound strings. When I play a lot of old school funk and stuff, I have a bass strung with D'Addario Chromes. They are kind of bright for flats, but give that percussive sound I crave. I find the TI's don't do that. The TI's are great, but too flexible to give that attack I find.

David Houck · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2004, 11:50:53 AM »

I agree with most of the above; your bass and rig sound fine. If you still can't get your sound adjusting the bass and preamp controls, start trying different types and brands of strings.

alemboid · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2004, 07:58:26 PM »

Dale,

No doubt the sound is available with your rig. Sure, I'd try different strings first, but before trying that, I would adjust EQ controls- try on the bass and on the F1-X.

One thing I find is that your home stereo, car stereo, bass rig, etc. only sound as good as your speakers. In other words, you could run an F1-X and World 2.1 through an open back single 12 guitar speaker and the sound would be horrible. You could run a 3rd world heap of an amp through a Bergantino HT322 and get some good useable tones.

The SWR speakers are great, but if you can't get satisfaction from changing strings, take your bass and amp to your local music shop and listen to other speakers, like the vintage series by Bergantino- they are built without tweeters and are designed to provide a good low end wallop-very vintage, fat tones. I definately recommend you try no speaker with a driver smaller than 12 inches. A good 15 inch box or two should help to move some earth.

Keep in mind you can affect your sound by adjusting your set-up, but if changing it too much hurts your playing, then trying a different speaker box may do the trick.

Personally, I used to use a Stewart amp, and switched to a Mackie M1400i. Is there a difference? Goodness yes! The Stewart seemed more hifi, and the Mackie is way F A T , very thick and bassy. Another box to try if you can find one is the Acme B2 or B4. Great sound, but maybe a bit too refined for your taste- more modern sounding than the Bergantino Vintage Series boxes.

A great vintage tone on your bass (as I have found on my short scale SC Deluxe) is to favor the neck pickup- leave just a tad of bridge pickup, roll the treble off on the neck pickup filter about 1/2 or so until you get a totally convincing '62 P-Bass sound. Heck- that may do the trick altogether!

I've been where you are- and I've spent thousands on a bunch of speaker types, as well as make my own. I've settled on Bag End speakers. Through the years I've bought and then sold them, only to find that they are the most musical sounding (very smooth tweeter, smooth low to mid to high tones).

Start with tone tweaking, and if you can't get the sound, start checking other avenues, the lowest cost and up from there.

Good luck!

Alemboid

Dale M Williams · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2004, 08:12:33 PM »

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all of the input. I've ordered a set of TI Flats and Rotosound Black Nylon Flats for a start. I may try an Acme B-2 for the biggest sound that is small and portable.

Currently I am running the two 2x10's via full range and the 1x15 in low pass through the F-1X. Makes sense?

Any further comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!

Dale

rklisme · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2004, 08:45:11 PM »

Hey Guys

I am hearing a lot of hi tech stuff out there but the simple solution is to buy a P-bass and a low tech amp with a couple of 15's.
I love my Alembic as much as the next guy on this site but I happen to know a lot of you play different basses for different reasons. Bring the right gear to the gig! I am not trying to ruffle anyones feathers just thought I would offer a different solution.

Rory

kungfusheriff · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2004, 10:23:29 PM »

Heretic!
Seriously--the reason I shelled out so much money for a top-of-the-line Alembic is because I was confident it would do anything I asked, feel good and not break, and once I had it I disposed of the rest of my toolkit because it had become redundant. I imagine rx followed the same logic.
I'll be the last one to join a cheerleading squad, unless it's warranted, and I'm a cheap SOB so laying out that $2K hurt.
On the other hand, no amount of money will buy a better sound. Mark Sandman had a great sound, and how much do you think he paid for that Premier? The money rx and the rest of us laid out bought consistency and options.
Trust me, the sound is in there...it's just a matter of tracking the sucker down and practicing.

dadabass2001 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 02, 2004, 05:24:10 AM »

Hi Dale,
I didn't see anyone else mention this, but check this link:
http://club.alembic.com/Images/393/7147.html

Go about halfway down to jrbrown's post of Dec 19 (The one with a picture of his rig). You might want to experiment with reversing phase of one side of your F-1X.
Mike

rklisme · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2004, 09:21:59 AM »

Hey Guys

Please don't banish me from the flock, I was only making a logical suggestion. As I read through the responses I see I am not the only one to come to the conclusion that I reached. You know I love my Alembics and would not part with them for any reason and I am very aware of the tone variations and possibilities. I just feel if you want a Fender sound buy a Fender and so on and so on. If you want the best damn sound on the planet then you get an Alembic!

Rory