Embedded, Unraised Frets

[adriaan]

By the way, I remember there was a Roland electronic keyboard specifically to mimick baroque keyboard instruments, and it had preset keys for the different tuning systems that were developed before tempered tuning became the rule. I remember there were tonalities that got very ugly in specific tuning systems, while sounding great in others.  
   
This seems like a good reference:  
http://www2.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Equal_Temperament.html  
 
Ah, and the Roland is still on the market:  
http://www.rolandus.com/products/ck_details.asp?CatID=8&SubCatID=41&ProdID=C-80&PageMode=1&Page=1&ReviewID=
 
(Message edited by adriaan on September 10, 2004)

[poor_nigel]

Speaking of the Buzz Feiten system, this looks like fun!
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2384&item=3731357108&rd=1
 
Get a drum machine going and you be there dewd!  Off topic?  Tangent?  Hmmm . . .

[811952]

Vibrato IS playing out of tune, but artfully.  You need to know where the pitch center is to pull it off well, or it simply sounds as out of tune as it is.  
 
As for setting intonation on a fretless, 99.9 percent of the fretless basses I've seen have not been setup correctly.  The string at the nut *must* rest at fingerboard level or pitch is going to be a crap-shoot in the lower registers.  
 
The major issue with fretted instruments is the curve the string has to make as it passes over the nut, which takes more pressure (and creates more tension) to fret, which raises the pitch slightly.  Further up the neck the string is already straight and pushing it down on the fret nets less of an increase in tension.  Adjusting the bridge deals with the latter kind of tension but not the former.  A zero fret would purport to solve the problem, but only if there were something pressing down on an otherwise straight string to hold it down against the zero fret.  Add to the equation that with more distance between the frets, it's really difficult to not pull the string down closer to the fingerboard, which also makes it go sharp.  That's why people who are used to scalloped fingerboards usually play really well in tune all over the instrument.  
 
When I was studying upright bass waaaaay back in the day, there were two approaches my instructors had me work on.  First I had to play pieces in tune with a piano.  Then I had to work out solo material using non-equal-tempered tuning (make that minor scale *sound* like a minor scale!).  Never the twain shall meet (at least not in tune with each other), but they both have their places.  
 
I don't have perfect pitch and am thankful for that most of the time...  
 
John

[valvil]

One of my ex co-workers has perfect pitch; most unusually his brother also has perfect pitch. Some years back the 2 of them were part of a study about perfect pitch; one of the things they found out is that as you get older and your ears get some wear on them (so to speak), your perception of the notes changes ever so slighly, so that you do not really have perfect pitch anymore, but ALMOST perfect pitch. My friend told me (at the time of the study him and his brother were in their early twenties, now in their mid to late forties) that he found that to be true. He says that now he is just a bit flat (or sharp, I can't remember) and that his brother (a few years older) had that happen to him as well but a few years before it happened to him.
So I guess even if you have perfect pitch you don't get to keep it forever.
 
Valentino

[son_of_magni]

A couple things...  
 
First, Bob, I forgot to mention that I also love the look of the blank fretless fingerboard.  That huge expanse of blackness.  And when the guitar player looks at your left hand to try to see what you're doing, heh...  
 
Yeah, vibrato.  I'd really like to hear what other people feel about two things regarding vibrato technique.  
First, pitch.  My feeling is that the vibrato should be below the note.  At the highest point of the vibrato it should reach the correct pitch but not go above.  My explanation for this is that flat notes create tension, but sharp notes are annoying.  So good vibrato modulates tension without being annoying.  
Second, rate.  The speed of the vibrato should be a subdivision of the beat.  A good sounding violin section has everyone vibrating roughly in unison.  
 
About playing fretless in general though, if you can play in tune, fretless is much easier to play.  Imagine laying a ladder on the ground and then trying to run along it placing your feet between the rungs without tripping.  That's how I feel when I play a fretted bass.  
 
Adriaan, that Roland sounds really cool, I'd never heard of that product.  
SoM (the fretless one)
 
(Message edited by son_of_magni on September 11, 2004)

[keavin]

Who is magni?

[adriaan]

Ah, vibrato! My simple-minded objection to all opera singers is that they start any vibrato at the wrong note: mostly a secund under the intended note, going up. That's just ridiculous, and to me it's definitely out of tune. Or in poor taste, whichever you prefer - that may depend on whether you've learnt (rudimentary) classic piano technique at some point.
 
Valentino,
To me PP doesn't seem to change much in itself over the years - more that I've learned how to live with it. Perhaps for others with the same affliction it's more that they come to realise that PP is NOT the ability to identify A=440 Hz, which isn't a big deal as long as you know that it's not a big deal (and some may take longer to realize that).
 
And I will reiterate that PP is not any more useful than musical pitch. Not most, but all people who have taught me anything important about music have done so in practical settings, and most definitely none of them had PP.

[son_of_magni]

Magni is a son of my grandfather, the Norse god Thor...

[adriaan]

John,
 
When I had my Epic defretted, the first thing I noticed was that I couldn't intone properly and predictably at all. This was with the nut lowered so that the strings were touching the fingerboard going over the nut, which the luthier thought was the correct set-up.
 
So I must disagree with you: I soon raised the nut so the strings would be up in the air again. But what you're describing is what I've seen on the double-basses that I've been close enough to to tell - so isn't it more a question of what you're used to?

[son_of_magni]

I like to have my nut adjusted to hold the strings about .015 inches off the fingerboard, about the thickness of a business card.  This applies to both by uprights and electrics.
SoM (the well adjusted one)