Time for a little honesty

[essencetimestwo]

HELP! I think I have made a huge mistake.   I recently sold my Spoiler so that I could buy and try a Ken Smith bass.   I purchased a BSR4J with a quilted maple body.   The bass plays great and sounds good by itself. I took it to rehearsal last night and it couldn't hold a candle to my Essence when playing with the band.   It got lost in the mix, no sustain, much lower output and for lack of a better term, lost its balls.   Ken Smith has a great reputation and is supposed to have some of the best basses around. Has any body else experienced the same as me. If so what did you do.   I like the bass.   It does sound very good by itself and to be honest, is more comfortable and plays better than the Spoiler. What should I do?

[bsee]

I don't think maple provides much in the way of punchy mids.  To me, it's great for a slap bass, but less useful for fingerstyle playing.  You can probably do some EQ work to bring it back out front.  Try playing with boosting some frequencies in the 300-800Hz range and see if something in there does it for you.
 
I just surfed over to Ken Smith's site to check out the specs on this bass.  Ken Smith does make some great instruments, but I wouldn't put the BSR4J in that category.  It's a bolt-on neck, after all.  You're going to drop some sustain in that neck joint.  You also get a pau ferro board, and I don't think it stands up to ebony for meatiness.
 
This type of reaction has to be part of the reason why Alembic never went down the bolt-on neck route to produce instruments at a lower price point.
 
-bob

[bigredbass]

Bolt necks are just different.  People often talk about a neckthru having more sustain; on a loud bandstand, ANYTHING will sustain at volume.  Having owned both (and swearing off bolt necks from now on for several reasons) the REAL difference is that neckthrus carry more fundamental and 1st harmonic into the signal going to the amp.  You can even hear this unplugged by playing an open string and putting your ear to the upper horn.  This happens whether its fairly common woods (maple, alder, mahogany) or some of the more exotic menus from ALEMBIC and others.  And passes this through to whatever pickups/electronics are on hand.
 
All the Smith players I can think of are pop/funk/slap guys.  I can't think of any deep groove guys who use them.  
 
Smiths remind me a lot of some other brands that are great for that boingy, slappy sound.  Which reminds me of a classic case of that sound at work I once saw, and learned a lot from:
 
Modulus Six through a nice Hartke stack with effects, and a first rate guy playing this setup.  Had that real 'new string' clangy sound, lots of high bass/low mids and plenty sizzle on top.  Would have been a nice tone for certain types of recording, but was COMPLETELY useless playing with a dance band:  NO BASS to lock up with the kick, no anchor, no groove to dance to.
 
Sound familiar?
 
The Smiths I've tried were nice axes.  Sounds like you're gonna have to rethink your sound, new amp settings, different strings, etc. I'd consider a 15 and get REAL familiar with the 50 to 200hz range on your rig!
 
You now get to learn how to take lemons and make lemonade!!!  But hey, you're talking to a guy that's shot himself in the butt more than once when it comes to equipment choices, it happens to all of us.  I'm sure you'll find a way to live with your KS, whilst saving for another ALEMBIC.
 
J o e y

[bassman10096]

Ouch.  Bob and Joey nailed it pretty well.  Ever since I had to part with my S2, I've tried a lot of other basses, including some I've modded and one I built to taste (it was very feasible to do that with the change left over from selling my Alembic - even after my son's tuition was paid).  
But...I am starting to really miss the thru-neck Alembic sound.  Don't get me wrong, I like bolt-ons for their punch, particularly when I want to thump.  I just finished building a mahogany bodied bolt on with a Modulus Genesis neck plus Dark Star pu's - in many respects the Cadillac of what I wanted from a bolt-on.  It sings a very cool tune for a bolt-on - in fact, I flat-out love it, but it's not the only sound I want to have.  I need another Alembic - soon.  I really miss the way Alembics place themselves in the mix.  
See ya in the want ads, Simon.
By the way, the only way to see the world with a bolt-on neck is with an SF-2.  It opens a big array of sounds I've never been able to get from any other EQ system - makes non-Alembics into a different animal.  If you haven't already, you might think about trying that.    
Bill

[olieoliver]

Bill, I get more punch from my neck-thru basses than my bolt on versions. I have 4, 5 & 6 string Warwick's in bolt on and neck-thru models and get much more punch from the neck-thru models. But I have a couple on Daion basses that are neck-thru and don't have the punch my bolt on Warwicks have. Of all my bolt on basses my Kubickis have the best punch and deep sound. They really are great basses.
I personaly like like the boingy slappy sound, when it's needed, but I am a also deep-groove player. This is why I have a variety of basses. Not to collect them but it allows me to have a choice in tone, sound, feel...
I will admit that since I've purchased my Alembics I've only used my other basses once playing out but I still play them at home.

[bassman10096]

I suspect we're talking about different punch sounds, but, to each his own.  I should have elaborated a bit more - Alembics have a much nicer and stronger way of presenting the low fundamentals than a lot of other neck thrus and all the bolt ons I've played.  On the other hand, what I like about bolt-ons (at least those with really good neck construction) is a natural percussiveness (thump?) I hear.  Takes a really solid bolt on neck and body to get a lot of real, mechanical sustain along with that (not just the kind of sustain that's a natural result of amplification, as Joey pointed out). Alembics do that naturally and offer a more toneful way to key into the groove.

[flaxattack]

something tells me( or i hope) that alembic set necks dont fall into this bolt on controversy

[southpaw]

Right you are Flax. I have an Orion & Distillate.
My Orion has great sustain! It matches the Distillate easily.
Also, I must say, I have a mid 70's Fender Jazz and a G&L, both of these bolt ons have very good sustain as well.  I asked an old studio bassist about this subject last year and he said; A good neck joint is a good neck joint! I don't care if it is bolts, glue or tape, if it's solid, it will ring... A Yogi Berra response but some truth to it.

[lbpesq]

Ahh, but with a neck-thru there's nothing to worry about.  So it's either a good neck joint or a good neck & a joint.  Take your pick.  hehehehehehe
 
Bill, tgo

[keith_h]

Ah... Leave it to an attorney to split hairs on what a joint is when all that was being questioned was the quality and duration of the buzz. ;-)  
 
Keith
 
(Message edited by keith_h on May 22, 2006)

[olieoliver]

As long as the buzz doesn't interfere with the playing.

[darkstar01]

never does.

[olieoliver]

WEELLLLLLL.....I dunno'

[lbpesq]

For some it do, and for some it don't.  I once played in a band where the other guitar player was an excellent blues and slide player, that is until he indulged, then he couldn't even remember a G chord!  For others there appears to be no negative effect on playing, and often a positive one. Everyone's different.  Otherwise there would only be one bass and one guitar manufactured and this thread would never have been born.  (Oy vey, I'm getting philosophical).  Now put that in your pipe and smoke it!
 
Bill, tgo

[jet_powers]

Personally, I've seen alcohol wreak more havoc amongst musicians than any other substance. When the abuse is of drugs higher than Class D, I tend to remove myself from the scene........
 
JP