Author Topic: Learned a good lesson.. (Read 908 times)

adriaan · « **Reply #30 on:** May 29, 2006, 08:20:28 AM »

Bill,

While I sympathize with attempts to bring 'soft drugs' under a less strict regime, I wanted to point out that, like with alcohol, there will be cannabis abuse. To me it seems like cannabis advocates want to stress the similarities with tobacco usage, and underplay those with alcohol intake.

olieoliver · « **Reply #31 on:** May 29, 2006, 09:32:32 AM »

I have but one thing to say here.....
.....how 'bout those MAVS!

lbpesq · « **Reply #32 on:** May 29, 2006, 09:41:46 AM »

Ah, but cannabis abuse costs society substantially less than alcohol abuse. To paraphrase former Republican governor of New Mexico, Gary Johnson, we've all been to the party where over there in the corner is the guy who's had too much to drink. He's loud, obnoxious, throwing up, and starting fights. Over in the other corner is a guy who's had too much to smoke. The only threat he represents is to a bag of doritos.

Consider also the problem of driving. While I don't condone driving when impaired on any substance (even allergy medicine), studies consistently show that alcohol impairs driving far more than cannabis. Alcohol results in people driving faster and taking more chances. Under the influence of cannabis, people tend to drive slower and take less chances. Many studies have found that, among experienced cannabis users, drivers tend to overcompensate, pay more attention, and have emergency reaction times that are as quick or quicker as when they are straight.

As for tobacco, no comparison. One is a deadly poison with few redeeming qualities that makes humongous piles of money for friends of the president. The other is a non-toxic substance with numerous medicinal qualities and other advantages (paper, fuel) that can't be patented - no $ for the billionaires. IMHO the gov't has no business telling me whether I can use either one of these products, as long as I do so responsibly and don't infringe on others (and I mean don't infringe on other's lives, not merely on their sensibilities).

One final thought: Not all use is abuse.

Bill, tgo

David Houck · « **Reply #33 on:** May 29, 2006, 10:01:01 AM »

I'm torn between hoping this thread dies and wanting to continue it since on the one hand this is one of those socially devisive subjects that can quickly go beyond the bounds of civility and rational discourse and on the other hand is an important issue about which we can all benefit from learning additional facts, experiences and opinions beyond our own present data set. Since so far the discussion has been very civil and informative, I'm continuing. Adriaan and Joram especially have a perspective that we in the US can learn from.

Just recently I received a form letter on this very topic from, of all people, Walter Cronkite. I'm guessing folks outside the US probably don't know Walter Cronkite, but here in the US he is a very highly respected patriarch in the field of journalism. Walter was writing in support of, and is an honorary board member of, the Drug Policy Alliance. The site has a wealth of information for those who are looking to increase their knowledge of the subject.

On Adriaan's points. I agree that there will be people who will abuse cannabis, and a large portion of the taxation Bill mentioned will go toward treatment centers. My guess is that many of the people in the US who will abuse cannabis are probably currently abusing much more destructive drugs such as meth amphetamine, crack cocaine and alcohol; i.e. people who are predisposed to such behavior. And it would be my guess that recovery from cannibis abuse is more likely to be successful than from meth, crack and alcohol. Additionally, my personal view from information that I have read is that tobacco and alcohol are both much more destructive that cannibis. Tobacco is highly physically addictive; it's very hard to quit and over time it will slowly and painfully kill you. Alcohol is quite destructive to the liver and other organs and it effects areas of the brain differently than cannibis. For instance many people become abusive and even violent when drinking alcohol. In my view, cannibis is much more benign than tobacco or alcohol.

adriaan · « **Reply #34 on:** May 30, 2006, 04:33:03 AM »

Bill & Dave, all good points - as long as you're not talking about the 'industrial grade' stuff called nederwiet, which is what will be flooding the market as soon as cannabis is legalized - since there is an established (though illegal) industry producing and distributing the stuff as-we-speak.

grateful · « **Reply #35 on:** May 30, 2006, 04:46:43 AM »

Sorry, I didn't realize I would stir it up this badly! As a liberal humanist, I will add one indisputable fact. It is hard to quantify the dangers of any drug, but leaving the supply of drugs in the hands of criminals increases these dangers astronomically. If junkies were provided with pharmaceutical quality heroin, none of them would ever die from their addiction.

Bill: I've read the Emperor, my point was to add credence to his claims about Hearst.

Finally, I'm not encouraging illicit drug use, In an ideal world (I wish!!!) nobody would feel the need to take any drugs.

Mark

adriaan · « **Reply #36 on:** May 30, 2006, 07:16:13 AM »

Mark,

If you say leaving the supply of drugs in the hands of criminals increases these dangers astronomically, it sounds to me like you claim the opposite would also be true. Decriminalizing the distribution of the substance does not decrease any risk in substance abuse. Also, I don't think you want pharmaceutical quality alcohol to enter the market.

There was a local pharmacy where I grew up, where the pharmacist's teenage children had found their way into the 'poison cabinet', and had soon become terribly addicted.

And let's not forget heroin was created for dentists. And less than 100 years ago opium was a pretty normal prescription drug for all ages, under the name laudanum.

kmh364 · « **Reply #37 on:** May 30, 2006, 07:42:34 AM »

Good God, and you guys were miffed that my Steely Dan thread turned into a bike thread? LOL!

While migraines and aging have found my partying days many moons behind me, I say smoke 'em if you got 'em!

Just do us all a favor and don't ride/drive if you do, please

Cheers,

Kevin

grateful · « **Reply #38 on:** May 30, 2006, 07:50:15 AM »

Adriaan,

Heroin in the UK is often cut with sand, one of the major causes of death amongst British junkies.

You seem to be claiming our current drug policies are lessening abuse. They quite clearly aren't.

I feel great compassion for some one who has found life so bad they have to obliterate themselves on drugs.

I know Bayer created heroin in the hopes it would be less addictive than morphine.

Mark

lbpesq · « **Reply #39 on:** May 30, 2006, 07:53:13 AM »

Adriaan:

Based on your statements about nederwiet, I suspect you yourself do not indulge. First, the Netherlands doesn't have a monopoly on high grade cannabis. British Colombia and California are equally known for high potency production. The U.S. gov't has been spreading propaganda about it, ominously claiming this isn't your father's marijuana, and that today's marijuana is 10 to 30 times stronger than in the 60's. Claims are also made that B.C. Bud is over 30% THC. Of course, gov't's used to claim the world was flat.

The truth is that selective breeding and more scientific methods have yielded more potent cannabis, but not on a scale of 10 to 30 times more potent. Also, the result is that people use less. In high school I drank beer. We even used to drink it warm through straws because we thought you got drunker! Now I occasionally have scotch or a gin gibson. Still alcohol, but about 20 times stronger than beer. Guess what? I don't pour a 12 ounce glass of scotch and chug it. Same thing with more potent cannabis. People just take less inhalations. And for medical use, it is preferable.

As for the fear that legalization will result in a wave of cannabis use overwhelming us, guess what? In places like the Netherlands and California, it is effectively legal and the sky hasn't fallen yet. In fact in places like these, teen use is lower than in places where strict prohibition is enforced. People who want to smoke cannabis are, for the most part, already doing it, albeit illegally. The number of people who are sitting around thinking boy, I really want to get stoned, but it's illegal. I can't wait for them to legalize it so I can get a big bag of buds and get blitzed is quite small, IMHO.

Bill, tgo

(Message edited by lbpesq on May 30, 2006)

tubeperson · « **Reply #40 on:** May 30, 2006, 08:04:41 AM »

Are those migraines related to sperm retention headaches? Seriously, for migraines Fioricet works well, but you would be too numb to play. Relpax works without the numbing effect. Most importantly, in a paying gig, patrons deserve quality playing, as do your fellow bands members. We don't get that time back (the price of living), so why would anyone want waste it?

Here's to great tunes and more Alembics for all!

lbpesq · « **Reply #41 on:** May 30, 2006, 08:17:25 AM »

sperm retention headaches?

?

That's a new one on me! Does sperm retention cause the headaches, or is it someone else saying I have a headache that results in the sperm retention? LOL

Bill, tgo

Mike Monsalve · « **Reply #42 on:** May 30, 2006, 08:26:02 AM »

I have to chime in.

I played while tripping the second gig we ever had at Gazzarri's. The first gig ever was the audition to get into Gazzarri's.

From spinning in a circle I'll never forget catching out of the corner of my eye my brother screaming at me from across the stage. Of course I could not hear him so I walked over to him and implored what?

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SINGING

whoops. It happens

adriaan · « **Reply #43 on:** May 30, 2006, 08:46:58 AM »

Somehow I can't fail to notice we all kind of agree on president Reagan's old slogan - what was it again?

kmh364 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 30, 2006, 09:00:31 AM »

Ah, NO! DSB is NOT one of my problems, LOL!

Zomig is my remedy of choice, thank you very much. I'm sure it's destroying my eyes, liver, kidneys, etc., but when I get that stabbing pain behind my eyes and my head feels like it's in a vise, nausea, etc., I really could care less. The migraines are life-long (they've been with me since early childhood), and even heavy-duty Botox injections in the face, head, neck, etc. four times/year don't do much.

Thanks to Astra-Zeneca and all those nerds^* that didn't sleep thru chemistry/biology classes, LOL!

Cheers,

Kevin

^* I'm an Electrical Engineer...remember, you can't spell GEEK without EE, LOL! It's a joke! LOL!